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Discussion Starter #1
Toysport sells a TRD Spec 2ZZ-GE race engine for about $8500 brand new.

Upgrades:
Hi compression forged pistions 13:1
Forged Lightweight Connecting Rods
Regrind Cams
Better Valve Springs
Upgraded Valves

http://www.toysport.com/webpages/WebUpdates/Catalog/Toyotaet/ENGINE20LIST20MARCH202002.htm

It dynoed about 215ps to the wheel at 8300rpm with room to go.

With Apexi PowerFC, additional engine work, boltons (intake, exhaust, header, flywheel, pulleys, etc), I can see this thing go 230whp.

Plus on top of that you can add the 3zz stroker kit. The possibilities are limitless.

For $8500, the price is very reasonable. You can swap out your low mile stock engine as a spare or sell it for $4000.

This is not much more than a well tuned turbo kit.
 

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I'd be all over that. I'll wait for a few of you guys to do it first though. I wonder how much the labor would cost to do the swap.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Labor shouldn't be too much. Figure this is basically a direct swap. My mechanic can probably do it for about $500.
 

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Something tells me that a 13 to 1 compression ratio would relegate this engine to a super high octane racing engine. I have never seen anything above 11.7 to 1 for a street engine.

I will say this, if this engine would run on 93 octane without any problems, it might be a lot better than trying to concoct a supercharger or turbocharger.

I still think that a good supercharger should get you som respectable gains, and I think that it will be possible to get 215-225 out of this engine without an large changes. I think that the NA tuning route will still lead to good gains. If we could only get the people who have the 111R to tell us about the Hp and dyno time they have already researched. I am sure that some of these companies will have to release their performance numbers as the release date approached for the Elise. It will be interesting to see what a good intake and exhaust will yeild, and if anyone is able to crack the ECU, what improvement is left in it.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Mean TT said:
Something tells me that a 13 to 1 compression ratio would relegate this engine to a super high octane racing engine. I have never seen anything above 11.7 to 1 for a street engine.

I will say this, if this engine would run on 93 octane without any problems, it might be a lot better than trying to concoct a supercharger or turbocharger.

I still think that a good supercharger should get you som respectable gains, and I think that it will be possible to get 215-225 out of this engine without an large changes. I think that the NA tuning route will still lead to good gains. If we could only get the people who have the 111R to tell us about the Hp and dyno time they have already researched. I am sure that some of these companies will have to release their performance numbers as the release date approached for the Elise. It will be interesting to see what a good intake and exhaust will yeild, and if anyone is able to crack the ECU, what improvement is left in it.
The new Toyota Prius has 13.5:1 compression and runs on pump gas.

The 2ZZ-GE is 11.5:1 compression and run on 91 Octane.

With 93-94 Octane found on the East Coast and in addition to tuning with the Apexi PowerFC, 13:1 on pump gas is not un-obtainable.
 

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shay2nak
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yeah, if it's TRD how can it be crap? TRD = Toyota Racing Development. I trust Toyota's own claim 99.5%.
 

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shay2nak
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i would rather go the NA route than FI. Less parts do deal with, and that equals less trouble. I would also wait until a couple elise owners tried this out. I think I would stop at 230hp for this car. Anything more and it seems too much. I would just start to save more weight instead of increasing the power.
 

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nyoneway said:
The new Toyota Prius has 13.5:1 compression and runs on pump gas.

The 2ZZ-GE is 11.5:1 compression and run on 91 Octane.

With 93-94 Octane found on the East Coast and in addition to tuning with the Apexi PowerFC, 13:1 on pump gas is not un-obtainable.
There's a lot more to that than just the compression ratio. The Prius engine has a 13.0:1 compression ratio, but is only making about 51hp/liter where other Toyota VVT-i engines are in the 71-73 hp/liter range. This indicates that the Prius engine was tuned for maximum gas mileage and has to have very a mild cam profile. The cam most likely has a very short duration and conservative lift.

The result of that cam profile is that the amount of fuel/air mixture that can fill the cylinders is limited. Thus, when compressed, it does not reach anywhere near the pressure or temperature that would occur with a well-filled cylinder. Same reason FI engines require much lower compression ratios than an equivalent NA engine. In that case, there is a lot more fuel/air mixture in the cylinders before compression starts.

I seriously doubt that the 2ZZ could run 13.0:1 on anything less than 100 octane racing fuel, without severely retarded ignition timing and resultant power loss.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
shay2nak said:
yeah, if it's TRD how can it be crap? TRD = Toyota Racing Development. I trust Toyota's own claim 99.5%.
Exactly... TRD do not make **** parts...

Lot of parts in my car is TRD right now:

TRD Struts (Made by KYB)
TRD Springs (Made by Eibach)
TRD LSD (Made by Cusco)
TRD Clutch
TRD Chromoly Flywheel (Made by Tom's?)
TRD Brake Pads (Made by Hawk)

They don't manufacture the parts, they only design it and contract specialized companies to make the parts.
 

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nyoneway said:
Toysport sells a TRD Spec 2ZZ-GE race engine for about $8500 brand new.
The key word being race engine. Expect it to want 100 octane.

Which is not to say it wouldn't be fun, or that I wouldn't be tempted if I didn't think I should have one unmodified car under warranty. :)
 

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shay2nak said:
yeah, if it's TRD how can it be crap? TRD = Toyota Racing Development. I trust Toyota's own claim 99.5%.
First of all, it says "TRD SPECIFICATION" - so, the quality of the build may not be TRD-quality.

As for TRD not being crap...? Perhaps. However, some of their stuff in the past has been totally unsuitable for street cars. I had a TRD Kevlar clutch in my MR2, and it glazed over one day when I was stuck in stop and go traffic. Wouldn't hold well after that (I ended up getting less than 15k miles on it). Besides that, it chattered and was just a poor clutch for use on the street. I feel it would have made a good race clutch, but wasn't marketed as such. Who knows if the same applies to this motor...
 

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ChrisB said:
There's a lot more to that than just the compression ratio. The Prius engine has a 13.0:1 compression ratio, but is only making about 51hp/liter where other Toyota VVT-i engines are in the 71-73 hp/liter range. This indicates that the Prius engine was tuned for maximum gas mileage and has to have very a mild cam profile. The cam most likely has a very short duration and conservative lift.

The result of that cam profile is that the amount of fuel/air mixture that can fill the cylinders is limited. Thus, when compressed, it does not reach anywhere near the pressure or temperature that would occur with a well-filled cylinder. Same reason FI engines require much lower compression ratios than an equivalent NA engine. In that case, there is a lot more fuel/air mixture in the cylinders before compression starts.

I seriously doubt that the 2ZZ could run 13.0:1 on anything less than 100 octane racing fuel, without severely retarded ignition timing and resultant power loss.

I agree completely. Like I was saying, I think the Toyot Prius is irrelevent. It is a hybred car not meant to preform. While I don't know what the cam profile is, I am sure there is not a 8500 fule cut off, and who knows what the ECu is doing. If anyone knows of another PERFORMANCE engine that is running anything above 12.0 to one compression that runs on 93 octane, I would like to see it. I personally don't think it is possible. I also think it would be intersting to know what the life of this engine is supposed to be. I am sure that a tear down would be in order every so often.

for everyone's sake I hope that I am wrong, but I have never heard of any engine running a 13.0 on 93 octane with a high SPECIFIC OUTPUT. I thought that the highest I have heard of is the Porsche GT3, which if I remember is something like 11.7 ot 11.8, but I am not sure.

Some other things interesting and I quite, "NOTE: These engines are all Japanese specification and do not have EGR provisions, some can be retrofitted, some cannot; and some where never imported into the U.S. Although most engines will pass a tailpipe test, they are not legal for U.S. certification without an EGR retrofit. Toysport imports and sells Japanese specification engines for competition use only."

And also, "There is no warranty on high performance engines."
 

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Discussion Starter #16
MattG said:
First of all, it says "TRD SPECIFICATION" - so, the quality of the build may not be TRD-quality.

. and even if Toysport does the work, I totally trust them.

I mean for years they been supplying race teams with the Toyota Formula Atlantic Spec 4A-GE engine...

That's a 1.6 liter engine from a 1986 Corolla that revs to 12k RPM and makes 240hp. Yes and that engine is pretty reliable compared to other race engines.


Some things about Toysport: http://www.toysport.com/webpages/Main/thingsabout.htm
 

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shay2nak
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by shay2nak
yeah, if it's TRD how can it be crap? TRD = Toyota Racing Development. I trust Toyota's own claim 99.5%.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


originally posted by nyoneway
Exactly... TRD do not make **** parts...

Lot of parts in my car is TRD right now:

originally posted by nyoneway
. and even if Toysport does the work, I totally trust them.

I mean for years they been supplying race teams with the Toyota Formula Atlantic Spec 4A-GE engine...

That's a 1.6 liter engine from a 1986 Corolla that revs to 12k RPM and makes 240hp. Yes and that engine is pretty reliable compared to other race engines.
I like this guy. You're alright, man. LOL. I like the first comment in reply to mine. It's good that you know much about toyota. Welcome to elisetalk!

ara
 

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Discussion Starter #19
vvtlikick said:
TRD Japan did produce a 230NA 1.8L 2ZZ-GE, but most of the parts never reached production.
This is not a production engine. This is a "race" engine. Toysport works very closely to TRD Japan. Just look at their inventory, they can get things most aftermarket shops can't.
 
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