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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Yesterday I had started and stopped my engine three times and even got a state inspection sticker. On my way back home, I was driving down a highway and the engine blew up...spectacularly! No warning! No noises. No rattles. Just a big bang! I had replaced the twin oil radiators in the front of the car with a Laminova heat exchanger over 100 miles ago Probably 200 miles ago). I was hoping one of the AN-10 fittings failed. But today I removed the under tray and there were metal pieces...one larger one even looked like a part of the connecting rod end cap. So, I've got full on cancer... :facepalm

My question is this... How are you guys finding the reliability of the supercharged 2ZZ-GE engines? Is it even worth rebuilding? I'm toying with the idea of getting a JDM engine for about $2K to get it running... I've got less than 10,000 miles on my car! Or just go for a K swap?
 

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07 Exige S
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Damn man sorry to hear that !

I am having to rebuild my head after my cam flew apart. Just the same it was something I did. It was my fault.

I can imagine a rebuild oneday so I look forward to hearing what everyone has to say.

Sorry again ! At least when it's back it will be meaner than before. That is the only consolation prize we get each time the "usually serious" comes up.

peacb
 

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Once I figured out the fuel starvation issues for track use I've had no problems with reliability. Although I will admit I have a fully built spare engine sitting in my garage "just in case" but have yet to need to use it. I'm also a preventive maintenance nut so there is some craziness involved in keeping the engine well running.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I like a well running engine too... I've just installed a Walbro 255-ltr/hr pump, new filter, new pressure regulator, new pickup screen, Radium fuel rail and an AN-6 line from the new in-tank-fuel system to the fuel rail. I've even replaced the OEM 440 injectors with 525 injectors. It was running a bit rich if anything...but running great and strong. I did "air it out" on the highway, but didn't redline it...I was just rolling in some more power after backing off...then...KA BOOM!
 

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1998 Elise Duratec, 2009 Exige S240 (+TVS1320 / CC)
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Shock JJ!
After all that good running here in the Gulf, why would it suddenly go bang?
I think thats the 1st point to check - retrace your foot prints.

I'm on my 5th 2ZZ powered Lotus - which have been a combination of NA, aftermarket SC, Factory SC, Factory SC with further tuning (I've had 4 Rover K Series powered ones too)…all have been fine despite use on the track, Hajar Mountains, Gulf heat & all the scaremongering you read on forums.

Switching to Honda K, has it's own issues too & to get the job done 100% would +/- $20k… even if you ship your lump off to some like BOE, the 2ZZ rebuild wouldn't be so expensive.

Good luck :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Shock JJ!
After all that good running here in the Gulf, why would it suddenly go bang?
I think thats the 1st point to check - retrace your foot prints.

I'm on my 5th 2ZZ powered Lotus - which have been a combination of NA, aftermarket SC, Factory SC, Factory SC with further tuning (I've had 4 Rover K Series powered ones too)…all have been fine despite use on the track, Hajar Mountains, Gulf heat & all the scaremongering you read on forums.

Switching to Honda K, has it's own issues too & to get the job done 100% would +/- $20k… even if you ship your lump off to some like BOE, the 2ZZ rebuild wouldn't be so expensive.

Good luck :)
OK...the question still stands...would you go Honda? This is only my second engine failure in my life...the first one was a Datsun that ran out of oil. This one is still on full... :shrug:

Give me your opinion...considering money and then taking price out of the equation...
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Shock JJ!
After all that good running here in the Gulf, why would it suddenly go bang?
I think thats the 1st point to check - retrace your foot prints.

I'm on my 5th 2ZZ powered Lotus - which have been a combination of NA, aftermarket SC, Factory SC, Factory SC with further tuning (I've had 4 Rover K Series powered ones too)…all have been fine despite use on the track, Hajar Mountains, Gulf heat & all the scaremongering you read on forums.

Switching to Honda K, has it's own issues too & to get the job done 100% would +/- $20k… even if you ship your lump off to some like BOE, the 2ZZ rebuild wouldn't be so expensive.

Good luck :)
So, I guess your vote is to build a new 2ZZ-GE...

And I was a regular at the Bahrain International Circuit... so, I am shocked too. :confused:
 

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I'd vote a K-swap mostly due to easier future expandability (if you ever wanted more power).
Reliability-wise, there's no problem with going back to the 2zz platform
 

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I like the 2zz, but if it needed rebuilding, the following parts would be swapped:
Stock cams to Piper Stage 3.
Stock valve springs to uprated valve springs.
Stock valves to uprated valves.
Stock block to Nikasil Block.
Stock pistons to forged pistons (with a slightly lower compression).
Conversion to E-85, for better charge cooling.
 

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K20 (24, 27) or bust!

I think, you face a very tough question.

I have been hanging around this forum for a long time. The number of Toyota engine failures is a little frightening. You had your motor for about 3 years and it grenaded. You should do a post-mortem, but 260hp and 3 year life-span would point to some poor design decisions. I do not think, it was anything you did or could have done. It just reached a stress limit on some part....

I think one can build a Toyota engine properly. There are plenty of people on this forum that are running them. I think it would take some $$ and experience to do so. With aftermarket supercharger kits, you could get 400hp. My personal opinion is that somewhere between 300 and 400hp is a very nice place for a Lotus. :) For me 550+hp is about right. :)

Engine: Building a 2ZZ or a K20/24 to the same level would cost a similar amount of $$. The K would be cheaper. The K is 10% to 25% more displacement! The weight is about the same. A k24 with stock block/cams/crank and forged pistons and rods would run 400hp all day long for a long time. Whatever $$ you save on the Honda will go into a Hondata computer with the Lotus dash interface and aftermarket engine mounts.

It would not be hard to build a 350hp NA 2.4L motor. It would be very easy to run a mildly turbocharged or supercharged motor to 400hp with stock cams, but maybe better valves.

Take a look at k20a.org in the engine section for common engine builds and results. the numbers I am quoting are very conservative with near Honda OEM reliability. The Odysey and MDX turbo motor is 260hp stock.

Then the Honda motor will have issues with adapting A/C (do you have that in the Cup car?) and cooling hoses. The cooling system can be easily re-made in AN hardware or adapted. I do not know what people have done about A/C.

There is a Honda conversion thread on this forum. There is my Widebody thread, although it is a pure race car.

Transmission: I think is the most complex part of the swap and the least reliable. Especially the shift cable adapter. In either cases, the cabling and shifting can be solved with a sequential from Quaife. The Honda kit is L4k. I am putting one in next week, so will put it back in the car and on the dyno in a few weeks and report. Additional items beyond that:
1. Axles. $1k
2. If you are making new axles, might as well modify the hub and the bearing, just like me and safely run 11" or 12" slick.
3. Shift cable adapter $1k, if you run stock Honda tranny.
4. Clutch.
5. New through-out bearing, although Honda slave cylinder arrangement can be re-used.

Exhaust: You will need new exhaust or parts of thereof. This could cost some $$.

The last question is the value of your car as it came from the factory. Ir will loose value with a Honda motor. Also, you have a large investment in Toyota hardware, unless it is all blown up!

Please, tell us how you managed to register this car in the US. You can PM me and I live in Canada...

Good Luck! Just take this as an opportunity to step up to 400hp! or more!

Anton
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
I think, you face a very tough question.

I have been hanging around this forum for a long time. The number of Toyota engine failures is a little frightening. You had your motor for about 3 years and it grenaded. You should do a post-mortem, but 260hp and 3 year life-span would point to some poor design decisions. I do not think, it was anything you did or could have done. It just reached a stress limit on some part....

I think one can build a Toyota engine properly. There are plenty of people on this forum that are running them. I think it would take some $$ and experience to do so. With aftermarket supercharger kits, you could get 400hp. My personal opinion is that somewhere between 300 and 400hp is a very nice place for a Lotus. :) For me 550+hp is about right. :)

Engine: Building a 2ZZ or a K20/24 to the same level would cost a similar amount of $$. The K would be cheaper. The K is 10% to 25% more displacement! The weight is about the same. A k24 with stock block/cams/crank and forged pistons and rods would run 400hp all day long for a long time. Whatever $$ you save on the Honda will go into a Hondata computer with the Lotus dash interface and aftermarket engine mounts.

It would not be hard to build a 350hp NA 2.4L motor. It would be very easy to run a mildly turbocharged or supercharged motor to 400hp with stock cams, but maybe better valves.

Take a look at k20a.org in the engine section for common engine builds and results. the numbers I am quoting are very conservative with near Honda OEM reliability. The Odysey and MDX turbo motor is 260hp stock.

Then the Honda motor will have issues with adapting A/C (do you have that in the Cup car?) and cooling hoses. The cooling system can be easily re-made in AN hardware or adapted. I do not know what people have done about A/C.

There is a Honda conversion thread on this forum. There is my Widebody thread, although it is a pure race car.

Transmission: I think is the most complex part of the swap and the least reliable. Especially the shift cable adapter. In either cases, the cabling and shifting can be solved with a sequential from Quaife. The Honda kit is L4k. I am putting one in next week, so will put it back in the car and on the dyno in a few weeks and report. Additional items beyond that:
1. Axles. $1k
2. If you are making new axles, might as well modify the hub and the bearing, just like me and safely run 11" or 12" slick.
3. Shift cable adapter $1k, if you run stock Honda tranny.
4. Clutch.
5. New through-out bearing, although Honda slave cylinder arrangement can be re-used.

Exhaust: You will need new exhaust or parts of thereof. This could cost some $$.

The last question is the value of your car as it came from the factory. Ir will loose value with a Honda motor. Also, you have a large investment in Toyota hardware, unless it is all blown up!

Please, tell us how you managed to register this car in the US. You can PM me and I live in Canada...

Good Luck! Just take this as an opportunity to step up to 400hp! or more!

Anton
The bottom end of the engine is definitely garbage...the head might be good. Not sure about the gPan2...I will be able to tell after tear down.

I'm at the last stage of getting the car registered... they already gave me the vanity plates "CUP 260". I've been to the cop shop to get the VIN verified/validated...done and signed off by the local police. The safety inspection is completed and signed off. I will go back to get the formal registration on Monday. They told me I needed all that first... so, I'm done. :cool:
 

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I would not be shocked if you discover a valve failure led to the demise of the rest of the engine. More than one forum member has stuffed a broken valve, which caused a cascade failure.
 

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Personally I would stick with 2ZZ. Get Phil to build you an engine. The K swap is somewhat involved and although it's been done you end up with a highly customized car that needs very specific instructions about operation, maintence and parts.

It's the top end that usually goes (valves float) not the bottom end. And I'm careful not to redline the engine.

My current Exige S has 4 track years on it and the engine is as strong as the first day (of course I just cursed that engine by saying it). That being said, I have changed the valves & springs.

Sorry your dealing with this. A complete tear down will provide a better understanding of what happened.
 

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Personally I would stick with 2ZZ. Get Phil to build you an engine. The K swap is somewhat involved and although it's been done you end up with a highly customized car that needs very specific instructions about operation, maintence and parts.

It's the top end that usually goes (valves float) not the bottom end. And I'm careful not to redline the engine.

My current Exige S has 4 track years on it and the engine is as strong as the first day (of course I just cursed that engine by saying it). That being said, I have changed the valves & springs.

Sorry your dealing with this. A complete tear down will provide a better understanding of what happened.
I agree with most of this. If you do the K swap you have to deal with trying to get it smogged, legality and resale value (for a street car).

If you're just going to track the car I still don't know that the 2ZZ isn't the answer. Phil will get you at least 350 rwhp and if the Honda swap was such a great way to make power I think he and Fred would have gone that route on their race cars. For that matter you could swap in a much more powerful motor if you're going custom, which is what you're doing with a Honda swap.

Just my opinion. I know one forum member here has invested a lot of time and money in a Honda swap just to be very disappointed.

San
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
He (Phil) appears to be quite busy...I would like to speck out an engine...with some discussion... He has not had the time to do that yet with me...but this is still the weekend... :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I agree with most of this. If you do the K swap you have to deal with trying to get it smoked, legality and resale value (for a street car).

If you're just going to track the car I still don't know that the 2ZZ isn't the answer. Phil will get you at least 350 rwhp and if the Honda swap was such a great way to make power I think he and Fred would have gone that route on their race cars. For that matter you could swap in a much more powerful motor if you're going custom, which is what you're doing with a Honda swap.

Just my opinion. I know one forum member here has invested a lot of time and money in a Honda swap just to be very disappointed.

San
Yeah...my apprehension too. But if I do do a Honda swap, I would do a longitudinal engine and not a transverse.

My car has A/C and I don't want a charge cooler, so I'd be limited to about 320WHP...but that's OK with me!
 
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