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4 banger gurus

6K views 49 replies 17 participants last post by  carbuff 
#1 ·
OK guys, I am in need of more power. Claudius has a 330hp chip for my car, I have ordered and Alunox charge cooler and a new exhaust system as well from Alunox.

- Do any of you have a larger turbo say a T4?
- Did you have to modify your downpipe?
- Where and who reprogammed the new fuel map/timing etc?
- What other mods did you have to do to make it all work?
- How was the outcome?
- Was it worth it?
- How bad was the lag due to the larger turbo?
- Does any one have the Alunox charge cooler? Do you like it? Is there a difference with it on the stock turbo and S4s chip?
- Lastly what did it cost? Feel free to pm if you don't want to post publicly.

Thanks!:UK:
 
#2 ·
There have been a few recent failures of the support link on the Alunox stainless steel exhaust manifolds...

I've seen a few T4 (too big) and a few hybrid T3/T4. The MAP sensor is the limit, you really will not be able to have more boost, even with the Marcus chips. You'd need a 3Bar MAP sensor and a totally remapped ECU, otherwise the ECU will not know how to fuel above 2BAR.
 
#4 ·
I have had one since they did the first batch, approaching a year now I guess..

The only issue I had was a bracket broke but it is a non issue and others confirmed this. There were a few of the rev 1 I heard of with cracks but havent heard any other issues like that in a while now.

Worth it to me? YES YES YES! Spools up much quicker
 
#8 ·
I've gone with a modified turbo following the methods outlined by John Welch (Wc engineering). Ceramic bearing largered wheel and machined out housing. It means much more air flow at the same boost pressures. You need larger injectors and at least a 1.0bar chip (see Travis's explanation above on the MAP). What you get is sustained max boost to the redline without any drop off. Personally, I think this is a better route than trying larger charge coolers as I believe they are basically time dependent. In other words eventually they get to the cooling capacity of the liquid. It does not matter how big they are. However, I would love to be educated on this.

I also have a free flow cat and bigger exhaust. I have a magnaflow of some sort. A friend has a Larini which is better, but drones loudly for my liking.

There was a recent thread on here how a new turbo model number ????? is actually 10% better than the John Welch modified one, by his own admission) but same principle.

I think all that on a healthy engine should be good for 330ish bhp.

Oh, I've got a BOV and a more precise wastegate actuator as well just to control it all a bit better.

I'm thinking 1.5 bar would be intense and require better pistons etc. But I'm way beyond my depth of knowledge at this point. I'm sure others can weigh in.

Cheers


RobD
 
#9 ·
reply on LEW I got on thread above when I asked if an issue not having the bracket till they get replacements sent out:

That's fine, I will mention it to Alunox,
A direct replacement bolt on bracket will be despatch to you when manufactured..
As stated it is a stabilizer arm and does not hold weight, using the car without it
should not be an issue as long as your turbo is secure on its pipework mounts..
Just fit the new one when it arrives...
 
#10 ·
Oh, there is a tiny bit more lag, but after a week , I couldn't remember.

I carried out the mods on the turbo as the turbo needed a rebuild anyway. Cost $1000 CAD ($900 US) which is quite a bit cheaper than the better new turbo, I think.
 
#11 ·
ok thanks for the info. Looking like I will go this route with the rebuild. In Cali we can't modify the turbo as it is now considered part of the smog equipment but Jason at Claudius is telling me I can get this done out of state. He did mention that going this route I would get more volume but same boost pressure. Didn't make sense at first as pressure and volume seem to go hand in hand but it makes sense now.

Have you dyno tuned it? If so were you able to get more power after the tune? If not what was the baseline?

Just curious.
 
#12 ·
Sorry, no baseline or dyne tuning. Mostly relying on the mechanic doing it, who has done a lot of this work on Esprits. Also relying on John Welch's website, and a couple of conversations. If you go to it, he explains the volume thing and flow maps really well.

Oh, as a side note, with standard injectors we had to limit the boost to 0.95 as detonation was present due to a lean condition. According to my gauge, I can get 1.1bar for a couple of seconds, but I don't have a digital gauge so it could just be off. So if you want to get the most out of the turbo work you really have to get higher flow injectors. At a minimum get new secondaries. I've gone with 225ccm over the standard 190. There are a number of threads on here discussing it.
 
#15 ·
Not trying to outrun the cops or rob a bank. Maybe loot some kids on Halloween but that's it. :D It's a "me" thing, just like the rush of going in fast spurts when the coast is clear. Who doesn't want more power? It's fun right? People spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on their cars just to make it go faster. Or just buy a fast car in the first place. I am a baller on a budget so can't afford such fast cars.:facepalm

Reason for this thread is that it's looking like my turbo is in need of a rebuild due to signs of oil leakage so now is the time to upgrade.. Bigger turbo, hybrid, exhaust, header etc...
 
#14 ·
Of course the trans is the limiting factor, but 330 is less than 350 in the V8 and less torque.

For me, it is as parts wear out I replace them with better ones. I will not be seeking more power beyond what I have. My exhaust wore out, got a better one. my turbo needed rebuilt; I improved it etc.
 
#17 ·
Im running the Alunox performance exhaust manifold and charger cooler along with the PUK stage two turbo and chip to match the upgrades. I felt the differance pulls harder. I dont have any dyno specs to show the bump in power.
 
#18 ·
Pulling 1.32 BAR on the car now per the digital guage. Alunox headers only change to breathing, still stock cat and can. Did get the larger primary and secondary WC injectors and the WC S4s chip from the very kind Mr. Welch. Turbo is a complete unknown as it was sold to me by J. Goffaux as being a WC ceramic unit but that was not true and neither Mr. Welch nor I can identify what it or its internals are. Car pulls enough to break rears loose on dry pavement at 30 mph in second gear. No rolling road results to post. Yes my initial bracket broke as well and had the added cost optional dual bracket installed. Hope this helps someone.
 
#19 ·
Noob,
You going to blow up your engine. You got over 90K on the clock. Maybe closer to 100K than 90k by now??? Even though your engine appears to running fine under normal conditions. You start cranking up the boost on a loose well worn engine and things will start vibrating and knocking about internally during elevated conditions that might cause an other wise well worn happy engine to come apart. Just remember the rules that apply to non stressed engines are different when things are kicked up a notch or two.

If you still want to do it. John Welch will do a core exchange or rebuild your turbo the spec and performance level you want plus will supply all the other things you will need to make it work.

Claudius has been around for a while and have heard he does pretty good work but he is expensive. But then I don't know of an alternate shop in your area.

Also if you rebuild your engine it will appear like you have more power because it will be tight. Then you can boost away in safety after the break in period.

When you say rush going in fast spurts. You mean straight line solo on the hwy or when you are with other Esprit's or sports cars? Cause if its playing with other cars doing Lotus style driving you can really mess with them if you just put a set of RA1 tires on your car. With the higher entry and exit speeds you will appear to vanish in the turns even when running with the V8's with their old street tires (many have really old tires). You will be amazed how much quicker a car is with fresh RA1 compared to other cars with old street tires. Many street tires have timed out and should be replaced but most will not throw away tires with good tread depth no matter how crappy they make the car handle. Tires like the RA1 will wear out rather than time out because they are real soft.
 
#20 ·
Getting to higher boost levels is not "just" about getting a bigger turbo. Higher boost pressures means hotter IAT which necessitates water injection and/or intercoolers both of which do less and less as the pressures and temperatures increase. Higher boost pressures require higher and higher octane fuel to prevent pre-detonation. You also have to reduce the spark advance which tends to lower power. More boost increases combustion chamber pressure which requires better head-to-block sealing and stronger (forged) pistons. Eventually the bottom end of the motor will have to be strengthened. The transaxle will not be able to handle the power. If you could just bolt on 50 HP don't you think the manufacturer would have done it? After increasing the power you trade power for longevity. The manufacturer had to warrant the car for a while. By increasing the power all bets are off since the whole system was not designed to handle the increased power and live for a long time. I am not telling you that you should not do this, just be aware of the compromises and trade-offs involved. In racing they do all kinds of stuff, but in that world the motor only has to last till the race is over. For a street car you usually want it to last a while and not require a lot of maintenance. In some classes of racing they tear the motor down after every run.
David Teitelbaum
 
#21 ·
Noob, my friend, take this as a return favor for the wheel & tail lights. And take it too as just my opinion, but what Cal & David said above should be heeded. Especially Cal't first sentence. So what, to do? get street legal sticky tires and if you use them to feel the difference as Cal explained you will probably hurry up the useful life of your 90K+ engine. Until that happens research your options so when the motor does let go you will know what you want and maybe you would've squirreled away some $ to get exactly what you crave. And be patient (though maybe you won't have to be too patient). The anticipation is usually more enjoyable than the finished result.
 
#23 ·
I agree 100%

If you head up to a nice mountain road,that four banger will come into it's own fast enough :)

Alan
 
#24 ·
Thanks all for your input and thanks Mr. Maxvelocity for your warning.

I have opted to stay with my existing boost which is at 1Bar. Got the turbo rebuilt per Mr. Dangerous' suggestions. Same boost but better response. All is fine and great!
 
#26 ·
thought about it for a little bit but didn't try too hard to sell the car. Couldn't find the nuggets to get rid of it. Too much time and money invested. Although I do like the interior of the V8 much better.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Noob,
First, I'll say that I am rather new into Esprits and certainly no guru on the subject.
Not having driven a V8 myself, I'd say from reading here and TLF, and speaking to owners of both, that you should keep your 4-pot. Better steering, lighter, better in turns, and just optimise what you have.
Brakes, Tires, brakelines, optimal coolant, engine oil and gearbox oil. Better pads, and better complete exhaust. Lighten some Things over time, and save time when accelerating.
In my Humble view, the V8 is too heavy and is a brake hard, turn, then accelerate after the turn-car. Well, in some sense of the Word. I'd stick to the 4-pot and optimise that.
In my view, the V8 is more like a sportscar for cruising, and the 4-pot a curve-eater. Anyway, some have written, that the more power you get into a Esprit, the more it will Flex.
The car mag that drove both the Sport300 and Sport350 wrote that the Sport300 is the better car. Power not always the answer. More about driving dynamics.
No offense intended to the happy V8 people out there intended.
There are many small Things to do, and just getting the gearshift perfect all the time, will get you going fast.
Get rid of non-needed weight in the car and get moving ;)
optimising porting, or the inlet manifold's gaskets to aluminium is already something. Everything should be confirmed and tested on a dyno, so you can also read fueling etc. You know, many small Things combined is not 1+1=2, but 3.

I jsut changed to the newish Castrol Edge FST Ti,a s they claim that filmstrength is nearly double. Worth taking. I called Castrol and had a long talk with them on oils.
I used the previous model Castrol Edge FST untill now.

On the other hand, I also feel quite sure, that there are a few things to be done, without the engine exploding right away. There are so many fast engines today, and it's worth lookinginto how they came up with that power. And the Sport300 and the S4s had more punch.

I've been talking to a friend WHO have tuned VW's and Audi's for over a decade, and of course bringing a 250 Hp engine up to 650 Hp shortens the life it can have.
But what mostly breaks Down in all his builds, are the gearboxes, which he already strengthened... 3 runs on a 1/4-mile, and then a new box. Streetdriving every half year.

On another subject, both some of my friends and I have experienced, that driving a beautiful car like the Esprit, kind of provokes other cardrivers to beat the cr.p out of their own car, normal one or sports-ditto, to overtake or stick to the Esprit, in such a way, that it gets dangerous or just killing their car.

Other than that, I think many wise by experience Words were spoken here.

Just my two-pence.

Cheers,
Redfox.
 
#28 ·
... driving a beautiful car like the Esprit, kind of provokes other cardrivers to beat the cr.p out of their own car, normal one or sports-ditto, to overtake or stick to the Esprit, in such a way, that it gets dangerous or just killing their car.


Redfox.
HaaHaa,

Occasionally I have the need to drive my plebeian "company car" on the same rural back-roads that I drive the Esprit on. :D


And at least once per trip during these times, I tend to drive straight off the road because I've taken the curves TOO FAST. -eek-


The Esprit's abilities are so excellent!! :up:

+++++++++++++

Get rid of non-needed weight in the car and get moving
Regards losing weight:

How much do those Rear Wings weigh??????? rotfl

(That's the first time I've ranted about this all year, oh well, another resolution broken.) :facepalm :panic:

+++++++++++++


Lastly, if you have never driven a V8 Esprit, don't knock them. I have, and they are powerful monsters, they just require re-calibrating your driving senses to enjoy. But they ARE enjoyable nonetheless. :coolnana:
 
#30 · (Edited)
Hmmm...... I don't want to "knock" them, but I see them as little bit different cars, than the four cylinder cousins. Maybe intented for another market or group of buyers, with near 80 kilos of engine and added comfort and softer springs; I don't know.? Sure, I'd like to drive one and I'm sure my wife would like the comfort-seat ;) Maybe even have one, next to the 4-pot ;) Hmmm... I need a bigger garage.

Cheers,
Redfox.
Member of the wing-society ;)
 
#31 ·
Yes, the V-8 is a little heavier but it makes up for it in other ways. The "secret" is to exploit a cars positives while minimizing it's negatives. For most of the people who have driven both they generally have a hard time going back the the 4 cyl (that is until they figure out it is usually more expensive to maintain the V-8!). As for losing weight, the best place to start (and the hardest) is the nut behind the wheel.
David Teitelbaum
David Teitelbaum
 
#32 · (Edited)
Absoloutely agree about the weight, David! ;)
That's why I've been on a diet, and now weigh in at 74 Kilogram, and as I am 1,88meter, I think that's it for loosing weight.
I've taken off lots of kilos on mine, while I don't want to change the look and character of the car.
The way I see it, I think it's about getting the best out of what you have, stabilizing the car's systems and components as good as possible. Tanks, Electric chargecoolerpump, aluminium double coolant tank, fresh coolant hoses and fuelhoses, fresh Lotac poly bushes, and fresh tires etc.
The last many years, I've seen countless examples of people, who invested much time and money into a making their car faster, but saved on running old hard tires.
I have a fresh example of that from last fall: I have a friend who after seeing my SE, wanted a similar car. He found a Turbo Stevens car, and begins to drive it. And while he's impressed with what it can do, he does not (yet) change the tires because he says there's still lot's of rubber on them. Well yes, but they are stone hard. So, one evening when we drove rather fast down a steep hilly windy road in the evening, one blocked light pod splashed it's water all over the windscreen in a hard turn, and the tires skid out, and the car spun 180 degrees. Then we drove to me, and put on my fresh tires, and voila, no probs and faster curves. ;) He is now convinced that he is in urgent need of fresh tires... ;)
Sure, Nm is hard to beat. Hmm, so I bought a few V8's lately. In scale though ;)
The Sport300 would be the ultimate for me.
David, do you see the V8 as a more point and shoot car?
Anyway, I like all Lotus'es.

Kind regards,
Redfox.
 
#35 ·
The V-8 is basically the S4s with upgraded systems and a V-8 engine. It is NOT a "point and shoot" car. You must think further ahead and always stay further ahead of the car since it is not quite as nimble as the 4 cyl. You have to prepare and execute turns sooner but you have gobs more power when coming out of the turns to take advantage of. It all comes down to the skill of the driver. A better driver can make the most of what he has and could outdrive a V-8 with a 4 cyl or vice versa. Most drivers will not get close to the extremes of the driving envelope to really exploit the differences. I prefer the V-8 as it is the most advanced of the series of the Esprit with a fully functioning Engine Mangement System, a better trans (Renault) better shifting (after '98), and passenger and driver airbags. The 4 cyl is simpler and lighter. More of what the Esprit was originally meant to be, more of a driver's car, a racer with less creature comforts (especially the early ones). This is not an indictment of the Esprit. It happens to every model line of every manufacturer as the model matures. They tend to keep adding and modifying till they have to revamp the whole thing and come out with a new model (think Elise/Exige). Makes the model heavier and more complicated till the process begins again.
David Teitelbaum
 
#36 ·
To play with the V8's one just has to drive a bit more precise and not make as many mistakes than they do. Like if you brake to late and bleed off too much energy in the middle of a turn. After similar errors in judgement the V8's are capable of getting back up to speed quicker. But the 4 cyl being the lighter car is a bit more stable in multiple change of directions like tighter S and progressively tighter S turns like what many refer to as a witch's hat. Depending on the skill level of the driver V8's will also have to be more careful when encountering something like a corkscrew.

So there are ways to vex the V8 driver and gain some respect for the 4 cyl. If driven correctly the 4 cyl favors a tighter more complex or combination corners with a number of transitions in a row rather than the straight forward sweeper that will favor the V8.

Similar tactics are used when going head to head with something like a Ferrari F355 or 360. Especially if you are pack leader or can get them to follow you for a fun one on one.

There are very few instances when the opposition driver drives in the 10/10ths range. They may think they are but in most cases they are not even close. In most situations I think I drive in the 7/10ths range. So the performance levels even out a bit and for most street and casual track day situations it all comes down to who drops the hammer 1st and if one gives up what lead they have gained through mediocre driving.

The performance of the machines are close enough it may just come down to who is driving. Hopefully on the occasions when I play with the V8's the drivers would have grown accustomed to relying on the the power/torque and will not be concentrating so much on their driving. LOL For me it is much more fun to spank than to be spanked.
 
#39 ·
Thanks guys for your input and responses. Car drives great and pulling very strong even with high miles. Just love some spirited hwy driving every once in a while is all.

With all the talk of handling of the 4 cyl vs the 8, I don't think I would ever take my S4 to the track as I would be too stressed if my high mileage engine should fail. The Esprit has always been my dream car and now that I have one, I won't jeopardize it. But don't let the NOOB name fool ya! :D I have had plenty of seat time. It's been a while, but Wife and I used to track a ton with the local clubs.

Planning on taking one of these back to the track.





More likely the Honda since it would be cheaper to beat up.

Have a nice day fellas!
 
#43 ·
Thanks guys for your input and responses. Car drives great and pulling very strong even with high miles. Just love some spirited hwy driving every once in a while is all.

With all the talk of handling of the 4 cyl vs the 8, I don't think I would ever take my S4 to the track as I would be too stressed if my high mileage engine should fail. The Esprit has always been my dream car and now that I have one, I won't jeopardize it. But don't let the NOOB name fool ya! :D I have had plenty of seat time. It's been a while, but Wife and I used to track a ton with the local clubs.

Planning on taking one of these back to the track.


More likely the Honda since it would be cheaper to beat up.

Have a nice day fellas!
I agree you would want to "baby" a high mileage motor. But it doesn't happen the way you would expect. You can beat the cr-p out of it at the track but it won't die then. A couple of days later when you are going for a doughnut it won't start when you get back into the car. To see just how it is doing keep track of oil consumption and gas mileage. You can also do compression and leak-down testing. If you want to get really fancy you do oil analysis. I would also pull the output hose on the turbo and watch for any traces of oil. Keep up with regular service like valve adjustments and belts. The 4 cyls also have problems with valve caps and the ones with the citroen box have issues with a circlip. Use the best oil you can get and change it often. If you get to 100,000 miles you are past being on borrowed time.
David Teitelbaum
 
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