[pbfoot12v]

Car sat for 18 years. The gas was like varnish/tar. I changed the tanks, blew out all fuel lines, both fuel pumps, fuel filter, air filter, cap, rotor, plugs, wires, cleaned the fuel distributer, new coil, and fresh gas. It won't run.

The car actually ran before all parts replacement. Before I replaced anything I just put fresh gas in it and it ran and drove. You couldn't put the engine under a load or it would fall all over itself. After blocking 4 auxillary fuel filters with the massive amount of trash and sediment from the tank. I felt there was no chance of simply flushing. I decided to just go over the whole system and clean and or replace all parts.

Now it won't run at all. I have 125 to 130lbs of compression. I have spark. I never touched anything regaurding timing. I pulled out the plugs and they are soaked with fuel. I installed new plugs and after several starting attempts the new plugs are soaked again. I even sprayed a little ether into the air box, but nothing, not even a blubber.

Is it possible I have too much fuel pressure? I'm not sure what the fuel pressure should be, nor am I sure where to check it or how. All fuel lines have banjo fittings and I don't even know how to plumb a guage in. I am really starting to get frustrated. Any advice would be helpful.

John:shrug:

 

[jmiesse]

not getting air? i see you checked fuel and spark. so what about the third element...just throwing it out there.

 

[socal450]

Place this question @ LOTUSESPRITFORUM.COM.You are sure to get great help.This is a great site,that one is Esprit specific,good luck!

 

[codymac]

K-jet, right? You need a special K-jet in-line gauge set to test a K-jet system. IIRC, you put it between the distributor and the regulator. Check with any local place that works on old Ferraris, old Porsches, old Volvos, etc. if you can't find a local Esprit specialist.

We found a local Ferrari specialist who was willing to loan us his set and a bay but absolutely would not touch the car (the Esprit owner had a Ferrari serviced there regularly and knew the shop owner).

Check with your local Lotus Ltd. club chapter if you have one.

Working on old Bosch FI is like taking a bad trip back in time while drunk. Apologies for not have too many ideas as it's not my forte.

 

[tesprit]

I had one of these Esprits (an '86) so I am familiar with the Bosch mechanical fuel injection system on your car. First of all, you have to be sure the fuel pressure is correct and you need the special pressure gauge set up as described above. You also mentioned that you cleaned the fuel distributor. Was this done by a professional or did you do it yourself? They are very sensitive units that don't do well with any amount of dirt in them and do not take kindly to being cleaned and not reset and calibrated afterward which can only be done by a specialist with the proper tools and knowledge. Have you checked the disc on the plunger for the air flow meter part of the fuel distributor for sitting in the proper neutral position and not higher or lower than the most narrow part of the air intake body? Have you also checked to make sure it is not binding and/or stuck in the opening? If the arm to which the disc is attached is not in the right position, the engine will be either starved for fuel or flooded. Do you have the Turbo Esprit shop manual that describes how to set everything with the fuel injection? From what you have described so far it appears to me that you either have the wrong fuel pressure or the fuel distributor is screwed up. If you can post in detail what exactly you have done as far as cleaning everything in the system as well as which parts you have replaced, I may be able to help you figure out what has gone wrong.

BTW, I never had any problem with the FI on my Esprit that I couldn't figure out and it was actually very reliable for the 10 years I owned my car, so don't believe that this can't be fixed. The mechanical Bosch system isn't nearly as complicated as a modern FI system.

 

[pbfoot12v]

Thank you

Okay tespirit you sound like my guy. Thanks to all others that replied as well. I am an ASE master tech and an Automotive tech instructor but I am completley out of my element. The Bosch K-Tronic is like a science project to me. I have a manual that shows diagrams and parts. Including smaller parts of parts and what each part is and what it does. This helped me understand to about a 70-75%.

I didn't go crazy with the fuel distributer. I just cleaned the plate and inspected it for obvious damage. I have no info on settings, at all. I search for more detailed forms of literature but found nothing. I have been dealing with Dave Bean for parts and they have been treating me fairly well but offered no outlets for manuals.

Keep in mind I reluctantly took on this car as a project that I would use for fill. When my shop slows down I work on it for a while then it may go away for months at a time until I get to look at it again. I've had it for about 8 months and I really want to get it right and ship it. It was fun for a while now the novelty wore off.

From memory I don't remember doing anything to the distrubuter that would require any re-calibration. I remember the plate move freely up and down but I do not believe it ever rested in the middle of the narrowed portion. I swear that plate was at rest in an upward position, and could be pushed down easily by touching it with your finger. At which point it would again rise and rest to the top closest to the air box.

There is no foriegn material in the air box, their is a new air filter and everything is clean and or new. I did find the "filter" for the outside air dame for the air intake ducts was coming apart from old age. I pulled it all out and sucked up all the small particles.

There is nobody around that handles these types of cars that I am aware of in my area. The so called "European car master" worked on it and said it needed a new distributer. I found that he installed a new cap and rotor and didn't have both straps holding the cap on. The rotor dug itself into the cap and he also managed to strip a bolt on the cold start injector.

I feel the need to see this through but it very well may be the end of me. I am spending hours on this car with no results. I'm losing my shirt. If I charged this guy my labor rate for every hour I had in it I have to give him back his car that doesn't run and ask him to pay me $5,000.00

Thanks for any help you can offer.

 

[codymac]

Okay tespirit you sound like my guy. Thanks to all others that replied as well. I am an ASE master tech and an Automotive tech instructor but I am completley out of my element. The Bosch K-Tronic is like a science project to me. I have a manual that shows diagrams and parts. Including smaller parts of parts and what each part is and what it does. This helped me understand to about a 70-75%.

Are you referring to the Bosch "yellow book?" If not, here it is, since you probably know what I'm talking about.


The testing spec.s are in the Esprit manual. Unfortunately, my copies start with the GM injection cars as we were working out of the owner's personal hard copy on an '86 turbo. A local owner or someone on the Esprit boards might be willing to fax you the relevant pages.

Jeff at JAE is another good source for Esprit info:
JAE - Vintage and late model Lotus car parts specialists

 

[jmiesse]

you stated:

Okay tespirit you sound like my guy. Thanks to all others that replied as well. I am an ASE master tech and an Automotive tech instructor but I am completley out of my element. The Bosch K-Tronic is like a science project to me. I have a manual that shows diagrams and parts. Including smaller parts of parts and what each part is and what it does. This helped me understand to about a 70-75%.


ME:
ok well then sorry for my totally unhelpful post.

I hope you find the problem. Let us know when you do

 

[tesprit]

Okay tespirit you sound like my guy. Thanks to all others that replied as well. I am an ASE master tech and an Automotive tech instructor but I am completley out of my element. The Bosch K-Tronic is like a science project to me. I have a manual that shows diagrams and parts. Including smaller parts of parts and what each part is and what it does. This helped me understand to about a 70-75%.

I didn't go crazy with the fuel distributer. I just cleaned the plate and inspected it for obvious damage. I have no info on settings, at all. I search for more detailed forms of literature but found nothing. I have been dealing with Dave Bean for parts and they have been treating me fairly well but offered no outlets for manuals.

Keep in mind I reluctantly took on this car as a project that I would use for fill. When my shop slows down I work on it for a while then it may go away for months at a time until I get to look at it again. I've had it for about 8 months and I really want to get it right and ship it. It was fun for a while now the novelty wore off.

From memory I don't remember doing anything to the distrubuter that would require any re-calibration. I remember the plate move freely up and down but I do not believe it ever rested in the middle of the narrowed portion. I swear that plate was at rest in an upward position, and could be pushed down easily by touching it with your finger. At which point it would again rise and rest to the top closest to the air box.

There is no foriegn material in the air box, their is a new air filter and everything is clean and or new. I did find the "filter" for the outside air dame for the air intake ducts was coming apart from old age. I pulled it all out and sucked up all the small particles.

There is nobody around that handles these types of cars that I am aware of in my area. The so called "European car master" worked on it and said it needed a new distributer. I found that he installed a new cap and rotor and didn't have both straps holding the cap on. The rotor dug itself into the cap and he also managed to strip a bolt on the cold start injector.

I feel the need to see this through but it very well may be the end of me. I am spending hours on this car with no results. I'm losing my shirt. If I charged this guy my labor rate for every hour I had in it I have to give him back his car that doesn't run and ask him to pay me $5,000.00

Thanks for any help you can offer.

OK, as codymac said the specs for the Bosch system as applied to the Turbo Esprit are in the Lotus Service Notes. I still have my Esprit service manual that covers this FI system and can probably send you a copy of the fuel system section. There is a good chance that you do need a new fuel distributor (probably NLA) or need to have yours overhauled and recalibrated. The system is very similar to those used on '80s vintage VWs (Golf, Jetta, Fox) so if you can find someone local who still has the skills to service the old VWs that would be a good starting point. They also may be able to put you in touch with someone who can do an overhaul on the fuel distributor as well. The plunger plate actually does sit in a slightly raised postion when the engine isn't running so it probably is correct. I would start by getting the fuel pressure on this car, compare it to the specs and go from there.

As far as the distributor cap not being clipped correctly, this is a really easy thing to have happen since you have to clip it totally by feel. I replaced mine once and swore I had clipped it correctly only to have the car not start and find the rotor arm broken off. It is a real PITA to get to it and I used to clip mine in two stages. I would first snap on the clip I could reach with the car on the ground and then raise the car on a lift and reach up from underneath to get the other one. Lastly I would grasp the cap and tug and try to turn it to make sure it was lined up and clipped correctly.

PM me with your email address if you want me to send you a copy of the fuel section from the Lotus Service Notes.

 

[lutterfer]

The car actually ran before all parts replacement. Before I replaced anything I just put fresh gas in it and it ran and drove. You couldn't put the engine under a load or it would fall all over itself. After blocking 4 auxillary fuel filters with the massive amount of trash and sediment from the tank. I felt there was no chance of simply flushing. I decided to just go over the whole system and clean and or replace all parts. didnt you miss the injectors???


Ok, i studied mechanics as well and for me it seems very clear that the Injectors are clogged, well not so clogged if you are pulling wet plugs, but if they dont "spray" as they should and believe me i know this! They will only be spitting a jet stream thus not pulverizing the gas and making them wet as this is too much gas or the spark is not able to ignite the amount of fuel. So my question is? did you change the injectors as well or did you get them cleaned? it seems like you got rid and replaced everything except the injectors.
I have a pressurized cilinder (sorry i dont know the name in english) which attaches to the fuel rail and you connect it to a compressor so that it works as a fuel pump, which you fill with a special liquid from OTC and works great! there's even a fluid to remove carbon from the valves and you can use this with the injectors in place of outside (you remove them) and manually activate them with another electric device.

I was told no one uses this anymore in the US as you have to send them to the lab. I dont give a rat's ass and use it on my cars and even a friend who owns a car shop asks for it every once in a while, and i have asked on the car shops but no one seems to know what this device is hahah Could it be be cause i learnt mechanics in Mexico city and we are used to fix or use our imagination rather than change the whole thing like in the US?-poke-
Let me just clear that we do this because we have no warranty or even if we do in the dealers they will still do this just to save money.


So long story short, install new injectors or get them cleaned, i could do this for you if you live near San Diego or you can send them to the laboratory, i believe there are a few sites on the net where you send them and get them next day or the day after.

p.s i hope i was a bit more helpful than the other guys. :nanner:

 

[codymac]

p.s i hope i was a bit more helpful than the other guys. :nanner:

No fuel rail and the injectors are not electronic in a K-jet system. What you're describing is not how this system works.
-poke-

Under no circumstances should the system be cleaned as you describe - it will ruin the fuel distributor as the return line will have to be blocked in order to keep from simply dumping the cleaner directly into the fuel tanks, resulting in ruining the seals in the distributor once the sensor plate locks up.

Yes, they can be tested, but it requires a special tool to perform the pressure, leak, crack, and flow testing.

 

[tesprit]

No fuel rail and the injectors are not electronic in a K-jet system. What you're describing is not how this system works.
-poke-

Under no circumstances should the system be cleaned as you describe - it will ruin the fuel distributor as the return line will have to be blocked in order to keep from simply dumping the cleaner directly into the fuel tanks, resulting in ruining the seals in the distributor once the sensor plate locks up.

Yes, they can be tested, but it requires a special tool to perform the pressure, leak, crack, and flow testing.

+1

This is old school fuel injection. The injectors are not pulsed, but spray with the volume of fuel regulated by the fuel pressure output from the fuel distributor. A metal plate in the air intake area of the fuel distributor gets raised up or down depending on the amount of air flowing through the intake. This plate is attached to an arm that pushes or pulls a metering valve in the fuel distributor head that regulates the fuel pressure and amount of fuel being sent through the individual plastic lines to the injectors. More air flow = more movement of the arm = more fuel allowed to be sprayed through the injectors. As long as the fuel pressure is high enough, the injectors will spray. All this regulation is mechanical in nature with only a few items like the warm up control being operated by a computer. The closest thing I can relate this type of FI to is the kind that is used on piston aircraft engines. It is possible this car has plugged/dirty injectors, but that is rarely the case because of the extensive filtering and dirt usually gets deposited in the fuel distributor body if any gets into the system. The fuel distributors are very sensitive to any dirt and can only be serviced with special equipment. Disassembling and cleaning them in the field without the proper equipment and knowledge will ruin them. Again, this FI system was common on many German cars from the early '80s (VW, Mercedes, etc.) and is usually very reliable. Lotus just adapted it to the Turbo Esprit when they finally gave up on the pressurized Dellorto carbs. It wasn't until a couple of years later that they set up the Esprit Turbo with full electronic FI (Delco sourced).

 

[lutterfer]

You're right, mechanic FI is competely different, perhaps i didnt explain myself. All im saying is the injectors could be clogged and he seemed to have taken care for everything except that.

Regarding how to clean them you're also right once again, i merely described how i clean my injectors which are the new kind, but im sure he can unmount them and have them clean right??

Im sorry but i wasnt aware they came with mechanic FI and apologize to the guys here for opening my big mouth haha

Anyways... get the damn things serviced first, regardless if they're mechanic or not. It says here he had gas looking like varnish, if this is the case i dont see how the FI could not have the same thing inside am i right??

No fuel rail and the injectors are not electronic in a K-jet system. What you're describing is not how this system works.
-poke-

Under no circumstances should the system be cleaned as you describe - it will ruin the fuel distributor as the return line will have to be blocked in order to keep from simply dumping the cleaner directly into the fuel tanks, resulting in ruining the seals in the distributor once the sensor plate locks up.

Yes, they can be tested, but it requires a special tool to perform the pressure, leak, crack, and flow testing.

 

[Arno]

Not wanting to teach anyone to suck eggs, but if it has been overfueling so much that the plugs are wet, then it may well be that the bores have been washed clean of engine oil and the compression is now down the drain.

Probably would have a hard time starting now, even if the mixture and ignition timing was right.

Of course the fuel pressure and flow to the injectors need to be checked (tinkered with K-jet on Porsche 924's and Volvo's) as well as the correct operation of the ignition, but it may be a good idea to pull the plugs and let it sit for a while to evaporate the fuel in the cylinders.

Put a little (engine) oil down the plug holes and turn the engine over a few times.

That should at least restore the compression again..

Bye, Arno.

 

[pbfoot12v]

Okay thanks to everyone. I will get on that link and PM the other guy for some info via e-mail. i appreciate all the help. I have new injectors but didn't install them yet. I took the old one out and basically looked at them. I basically wanted to hear it run even if it ran bad. Just incase there is some more sediment in the system. i wanted to change the injectors last if possible. Keep in mind I'm not a fan of replacing everything, I don't like being a parts changer. However I have never seen a fuel system this bad from sitting. After a while I felt most parts would have been effected by this condition. That being said the customer requested the system be replaced in it's entirety.

Thank you again guys and please check back on this post from time to time I will keep you posted on my progress or lack there off. Also as I posted before a compression test revieled 125 pounds per square inch of cylinder compression. That seems about right to me. I did a wet test and the numbers moved hardly at all.

John

 

[lutterfer]

Put a little (engine) oil down the plug holes and turn the engine over a few times.

I also agree on this, probably the piston rings are sticking to the piston (not free as they should) from sitting all those years, i havent one this before, but i heard if you put a little diesel on the plug holes so it drains to the cylinders helps to get the rings free and then drain the oil pan. Also heard WD-40 but im not sure i would do this on my lotus, perhaps on a 2 stroke bike.

Just my 2 cents.

What do you guys think?? Is there a special fluid to get the rings free??

 

[Jeff Torrey]

You said it would run but run badly. You cleaned things up and now it won't start.

You said you had spark and fuel. Do you have vacuum? The car won't run if a vacuum line has come off. There should be a diagram on the rear hatch that shows the route of all the vacuum lines. Double check the connections, there is one under the intake manifold and two attached to the Turbo box, one on each end.

This is where you go to discuss mechanical issues with a Turbo Esprit. turboesprit : The OLDEST Turboesprit group on the Net

If they ask for a referal you can use my name.

Good luck, -Jeff