Adjusting the LSS suspension?
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Other than things like alignment, there are not many adjustments possible. The damping is fixed and the ride height has two settings about 5-8 mm apart. The car is delivered on the lower setting. Base cars have 10% softer springs and come with three height settings, the middle of which is set at the factory.
>>>Thanks Stan. Do you know how to make the adjustment or where to find the instructions to do so?<<<
Sure. You have to relieve the spring preload such that you can slide the spring perch on the body of the shock towards the spring. Under the perch is a simple c-clip that fits into a groove cut into the body of the shock. Once this is exposed just move it with a pair of pliers into the selected groove. The clip can't come out once the perch is back on top of it. I don't think you can do this on the car...it's easiest to relieve the spring pressure by using a spring compressor on a workbench. Which means removing each coil over for a height change. Only the base suspension can be (slightly) lowered. The shock body grooves are about 5 mm apart...this would results in slightly more than that amount of change at the tire.
Sure. You have to relieve the spring preload such that you can slide the spring perch on the body of the shock towards the spring. Under the perch is a simple c-clip that fits into a groove cut into the body of the shock. Once this is exposed just move it with a pair of pliers into the selected groove. The clip can't come out once the perch is back on top of it. I don't think you can do this on the car...it's easiest to relieve the spring pressure by using a spring compressor on a workbench. Which means removing each coil over for a height change. Only the base suspension can be (slightly) lowered. The shock body grooves are about 5 mm apart...this would results in slightly more than that amount of change at the tire.
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Be very careful about changing ride height as you can really mess up the handling.
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There is a lower setting below LSS for ride height, but you will probably hit the bump stops without significantly stiffer springs.
The camber changes about .14 degrees per shim.
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6680&highlight=camber+shim
The camber changes about .14 degrees per shim.
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6680&highlight=camber+shim
>>>Stan, it comes at the lowest setting from the factory on LSS? Also do you know what each shim represents in terms of degrees for the camber adjustment?<<<
That is correct, LSS comes set at the lower of the two height settings from the factory.
1) Front Suspension:
Camber: Changes about 1/4 to 1/3 degree per 1 mm shim
Caster: Changes ~0.4 degrees per washer/shim shifted
Toe: 1/4 turn of both adjusters yields a ~ 2 mm change in toe
2) Rear Suspension:
Camber: About ~ .3 degrees per 1 mm shim
Caster: Not directly adjustable (yes there is rear caster).
Toe: 1/6 turn of the adjuster = ~ 1 mm toe change, per side.
That is correct, LSS comes set at the lower of the two height settings from the factory.
1) Front Suspension:
Camber: Changes about 1/4 to 1/3 degree per 1 mm shim
Caster: Changes ~0.4 degrees per washer/shim shifted
Toe: 1/4 turn of both adjusters yields a ~ 2 mm change in toe
2) Rear Suspension:
Camber: About ~ .3 degrees per 1 mm shim
Caster: Not directly adjustable (yes there is rear caster).
Toe: 1/6 turn of the adjuster = ~ 1 mm toe change, per side.
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Stan, looks like we have different numbers for the camber changes per shim. I will have to review my math.
Did you verify that there is not a lower setting? Nick Adams told me there was one lower which is what they used on the LA Auto Show cars for looks.
Did you verify that there is not a lower setting? Nick Adams told me there was one lower which is what they used on the LA Auto Show cars for looks.
>>>Stan, looks like we have different numbers for the camber changes per shim. I will have to review my math. <<<
Well we are dealing with approximations and rubber bushings and so forth. On the front suspension the Factory Service Manual says ~1/4 degree per 1 mm shim (section CI page 5) and some other sources have said otherwise or 1/3. Factory front shims come in 1 and 3 mm thicknesses and the rears come only in 1 mm sizes.
>>Did you verify that there is not a lower setting? Nick Adams told me there was one lower which is what they used on the LA Auto Show cars for looks.<<
My LTS car came with dampers with three grooves and the middle was used. This agrees with the FSM: Section CI page 9 and DH page 7. The FSM says (and BTC confirmed) that the LSS damper has two grooves. The FSM says to use the upper groove to achieve factory standard ride height. If upper means when installed on the car with the body of the damper facing upward (upside down so to speak to cut unsprung weight) then the car comes with the lowest ride height from the factory. When Brian and I looked over his car this appeared to be the case...we were inspecting the rear. We could not see the second groove as it would have been obscured by the perch.
Maybe Nick was referring to the LTS dampers with their three grooves...those have one option for lower ride height.
I don't know the relative postions of all of these grooves. That is the two LSS grooves may or may not exactly coincide with two of the LTS groove options, and the third LTS groove may be higher or lower if you see what I mean. Early comments seemed to indicate that there were to be 5 grooves. Maybe someone mixed up the number of grooves with the spacing between grooves or something. The LTS and LSS springs have different free lengths too.
LTS front: 8 23/32
LTS Rear: 9 19/32
Well we are dealing with approximations and rubber bushings and so forth. On the front suspension the Factory Service Manual says ~1/4 degree per 1 mm shim (section CI page 5) and some other sources have said otherwise or 1/3. Factory front shims come in 1 and 3 mm thicknesses and the rears come only in 1 mm sizes.
>>Did you verify that there is not a lower setting? Nick Adams told me there was one lower which is what they used on the LA Auto Show cars for looks.<<
My LTS car came with dampers with three grooves and the middle was used. This agrees with the FSM: Section CI page 9 and DH page 7. The FSM says (and BTC confirmed) that the LSS damper has two grooves. The FSM says to use the upper groove to achieve factory standard ride height. If upper means when installed on the car with the body of the damper facing upward (upside down so to speak to cut unsprung weight) then the car comes with the lowest ride height from the factory. When Brian and I looked over his car this appeared to be the case...we were inspecting the rear. We could not see the second groove as it would have been obscured by the perch.
Maybe Nick was referring to the LTS dampers with their three grooves...those have one option for lower ride height.
I don't know the relative postions of all of these grooves. That is the two LSS grooves may or may not exactly coincide with two of the LTS groove options, and the third LTS groove may be higher or lower if you see what I mean. Early comments seemed to indicate that there were to be 5 grooves. Maybe someone mixed up the number of grooves with the spacing between grooves or something. The LTS and LSS springs have different free lengths too.
LTS front: 8 23/32
LTS Rear: 9 19/32
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There seems to be a difference of opinions here. Hopefully, I'll be able to verify on wednesday with a smart camber gauge and take out the coils and investigate. As far as why I care about this, how's the tire wear on the track. I'll be able to get pyrometer readings nextmonth but I'm looking for a good starting point. It's ridiculous how little camber is available in the front. What do they do with the Exige cup cars? I can't imagine -.8 being enough to optimize the contact patch.
>>>There seems to be a difference of opinions here. Hopefully, I'll be able to verify on wednesday with a smart camber gauge and take out the coils and investigate. As far as why I care about this, how's the tire wear on the track. I'll be able to get pyrometer readings nextmonth but I'm looking for a good starting point. It's ridiculous how little camber is available in the front. What do they do with the Exige cup cars? I can't imagine -.8 being enough to optimize the contact patch.<<<
Camber changes will never totally match theory due to things like rubber bushings, uneven ground during casual measurements. But if you yank two 1 mm shims you should achieve somewhere near the expected amount of change. I think they give the guideline as a starting point, you should always measure the actual.
Our double a-arm suspension has a useful camber curve. On the Cup cars they have a much lower static ride height so they can achieve more static camber. That is the suspension gains negative camber as it is compressed. Lotus generally tunes the Elise to run out of front grip first.
Camber changes will never totally match theory due to things like rubber bushings, uneven ground during casual measurements. But if you yank two 1 mm shims you should achieve somewhere near the expected amount of change. I think they give the guideline as a starting point, you should always measure the actual.
Our double a-arm suspension has a useful camber curve. On the Cup cars they have a much lower static ride height so they can achieve more static camber. That is the suspension gains negative camber as it is compressed. Lotus generally tunes the Elise to run out of front grip first.
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I agree but some of the fun is tinkering and then driving.Patricko said:
BTW I got LSS.
Until the car does something you did not expect because it is not setup correctly and you put your new Elise in a ditchhuggy bear said:I agree but some of the fun is tinkering and then driving.
BTW I got LSS.
See this thread for an example of what I am talking about...
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4263
I also got the Sports Pack
>>>Until the car does something you did not expect because it is not setup correctly and you put your new Elise in a ditch<<<
I don't think this was a car set up problem per se. It looks like extremely poor judgement first of all combined with a likely driving error. Driving very, very high speeds on the street in a residential area is not a good idea. For the car to have wound up where it did in the way that it did the young man was NOT doing 25 MPH.
I don't think this was a car set up problem per se. It looks like extremely poor judgement first of all combined with a likely driving error. Driving very, very high speeds on the street in a residential area is not a good idea. For the car to have wound up where it did in the way that it did the young man was NOT doing 25 MPH.
so anyone think someone will come out with a nice camber plate kit for the elise anytime soon(shinoo, you listening...)???...will keep my LSS car completely stock(ok, except for QS exhaust) for 1 yr but afterwards, I can see myself wanting a camber kit if available amongst other things...loved that Ground Control camber kit for BMW's....didnt Randy already show even at the speeds attained at a autoX that the outer tire edge was wearing down more and running significantly hotter???
)???...will keep my LSS car completely stock(ok, except for QS exhaust) for 1 yr but afterwards, I can see myself wanting a camber kit if available amongst other things...loved that Ground Control camber kit for BMW's....didnt Randy already show even at the speeds attained at a autoX that the outer tire edge was wearing down more and running significantly hotter???Stan said:
Stan, what you said at the end is soo true...after having Bilstein PSS 9 coils installed and getting M3 ride height down to 13.25 inches at all 4 corner, I had -2.50 rear and -1.5 front camber without any camber plates...not sure what camber the elise will like for track events but Im guessing more than -1.0 but probably not -3.0 like the e46 M3 likes.
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