aftermarket - Toyota or Honda?

1786 Views 8 Replies 6 Participants Last post by gotapex, Jun 12, 2004

617arg

Discussion Starter · Jun 11, 2004

I've been thinking about the Elise alot again lately, and love the car. Only thing is I don't really know a thing about the Toyota motor besides what the magazines say. 190hp stock (not sure what the torque #'s are)
I was really hoping that the engine would be either a B18c5 (195hp) or a K20A (220hp), both stock Honda engines, mainly because I feel like I know them better and also know what kind of #'s they're capable of.
The aftermarket support for engine internals, itb's, & ecu tuning software is incredible, and for someone whose interested in doing that kind of work, that's a huge plus. The B18c5 was a great tuner motor, and the K-series apparently reacts even better when modded and tuned.
Is there the same level of support for the Toyota engine?.......I know the Supra had a potent motor, but know nothing about the Celica's.
I saw the company that does this swap, and at this point it looks like that's the way I would eventually go......I think.
Anyone else considering this option?
Is it something that would "devalue" the car?
To me it seems like it would be a great way to build an all-motor monster Elise.

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Ground Loop

· #2 · Jun 11, 2004

617arg said:
Is it something that would "devalue" the car?
To me it seems like it would be a great way to build an all-motor monster Elise.

The only mod that will increase the dollar value of a sportscar is to stuff the seats with crisp $100 bills. And only if you sew it back up with OE thread.

If you build it, do it because you want a monster Elise, not because it will fetch high dollars on the resale market. Expect to take a loss, and extract your value in years of fun.

The auto trader is full of cars with "$xx,xxx in upgrades!" can't pass smog, asking $6k obo. Mine among them.

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617arg

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jun 11, 2004

I agree. And I don't think anyone considering this would be doing so for the intention of a higher resale value.

I'm just wondering if the Toyota engine will offer as much potential as I know the others can.

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jdw5155

· #4 · Jun 11, 2004

Hey, if you're considering swapping your engine out for a Honda powerplant anyhow why not hook up with a good tuner and let them go nuts on your OEM engine first. They could try turbos and SC installations galore. If they come across a good solution that brings great power then you win having the first such beast and I/WE win by having someone prove it first and working out the details. If it fails, well you were going to swap it out anyhow and I/WE will forever hold you in the highest respect for being so bold in the interest of bettering Lotus drivers everywhere. I might even chip in and buy you a hat for the effort

Be my hero, go for it.
Jim

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617arg

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jun 11, 2004

going FI with the Toyota (or Honda) engine seems like an option to many. All-motor is just more attractive to me for this car, in keeping with the high compression, high efficiency, high redline concept.....and in that regard I know the Honda R motors have already been proven to be potent and reliable all-motor monsters.........aggressive cams are available, lightweight valvetrain components, pistons, etc. have already been developed and tested. I've seen 220whp B18c motors revving @ 9200rpm being used as daily drivers in Honda's. Stock K20's are dynoing @ 200whp with simple tuning and no internal mods.
For those planning to only use the Elise as a track car Toda Racing makes cams that make power from 6000rpm and up.

In my case I just feel much more comfortable with Honda engines....unless someone can comfort me with a few words about what people are doing with the Toyota engine in an all-motor application

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MickOpalak

· #6 · Jun 11, 2004

Re: Re: aftermarket - Toyota or Honda?

Ground Loop said:
The only mod that will increase the dollar value of a sportscar is to stuff the seats with crisp $100 bills. And only if you sew it back up with OE thread.

If you build it, do it because you want a monster Elise, not because it will fetch high dollars on the resale market. Expect to take a loss, and extract your value in years of fun.

The auto trader is full of cars with "$xx,xxx in upgrades!" can't pass smog, asking $6k obo. Mine among them.

Amen to that! And the insurance companies don't care either. When I totalled my Miata I told State Farm that I have $6k in mods that really raised the performance and value of the car. They don't care. They'll give you book value for it and that's all.

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fitfan

· #7 · Jun 11, 2004

if your talking "bolt-on" hondas have a lot more product available, if your talking "custom build" (it sounds like to me) then really an engine builder can do the same with any engine, for the most part at least... TRD offers high comresion pistons, and i know you can get rods, valves and springs, cams are an issue of how the engine is built, and would be specific to how you decide to go. the real headwork is all labor for flow. Really its all the same, lighter rotational mass, balance, and flow. The intake and exhaust will be specific to the elise anyways, irrespective of engine manufacturer.

I agree to go with the Toyota build first. a transplant is going to raise alot of other development problems (time and money) that could affect other aspects of the cars performance... who knows untill you try, at least with the toyota build, you know what your getting into.

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617arg

Discussion Starter · #8 · Jun 12, 2004 (Edited)

fitfan said:
if your talking "bolt-on" hondas have a lot more product available, if your talking "custom build" (it sounds like to me) then really an engine builder can do the same with any engine, for the most part at least... TRD offers high comresion pistons, and i know you can get rods, valves and springs, cams are an issue of how the engine is built, and would be specific to how you decide to go. the real headwork is all labor for flow. Really its all the same, lighter rotational mass, balance, and flow. The intake and exhaust will be specific to the elise anyways, irrespective of engine manufacturer.

I agree to go with the Toyota build first. a transplant is going to raise alot of other development problems (time and money) that could affect other aspects of the cars performance... who knows untill you try, at least with the toyota build, you know what your getting into.

Thanks everyone for all your responses.. Keep them coming.

I also agree with what fitfan is saying about how an engine builder can do the same with any engine. What I guess I'm really trying to ask is not about bolt-ons like intake, header, exhaust (which would not fit in the Elise any way) but engine internals.
For instance......I know that for the B18c, Toda Racing makes 4 different sets of camshafts. Spec A, B, C and the "vtec killers"(a racing only app. which removes vtec to allow for a lighter valvetrain and much higher redline.....race only. they make power from 6k rpm and up) ........the Spec C's are very aggressive cams and have been proven to be streetable as well, I've seen over 220whp on these.
So I'm basically wondering if the Toyota engine has such support, if there is anything in development (naturally aspirated) that anyone knows about, or if the TRD parts would be the only internals really available beside getting a custom camshaft ground. What kind of developments have been made with this motor that are vailable to the consumer?, and does anyone know of a good resource (forum possibly) to find out more about it?

I'm just trying to think of the possibilities and possibly get some feedback from others about how they would squeeze more power out of the 2ZZ, or if they would go some other way. I've read the posts about the Turbo and SC, but I would lie to stay away from FI.

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gotapex

· #9 · Jun 12, 2004

Re: Re: Re: aftermarket - Toyota or Honda?

MickOpalak said:
Amen to that! And the insurance companies don't care either. When I totalled my Miata I told State Farm that I have $6k in mods that really raised the performance and value of the car. They don't care. They'll give you book value for it and that's all.

When my Eclipse GSX was stolen, I had about $5k worth of mods, with receipts. AAA ended up paying me about $4k more than they were originally.

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