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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Guys, when AIM set my car up they set it up conservatively, or at least to factory-ish settings. I would love to hear from some track guys. Any advice? Any findings from data?

left front
weight 342
ride height 101.5 mm
caster 4 deg
camber -1.7 deg
toe +0.25mm

right front
weight 340 lbs
Ride height 102.5mm
caster 4 deg
camber =1.7 deg
toe +0.25mm

-- spring
80 N/mm
457 lb/in

Left rear
588 lbs
ride height 109 mm
caster n/a
camber -2.7
toe -2.6

right rear
545 lbs
ride height 110 mm
camber -2.5
toe -2.5

-- spring
105 N/mm
600 lb/in

I'm running Hoosier A6 tires
205/45/16 up front
245/3-16 rear
 

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So I guess at 1815lbs, that's with driver since you've got a 211?

Corner weights are not bad with a 41lb delta-cross or just 2.26%... would be nice to be under 1% FWIW.... but not the end of the world.

Could probably use a bit more front toe out and a bit less rear toe in... but you might try it first, as 211s are a bit more nervous than Elise/exige with only 37% of the weight in front...

Front camber could be 50-100% more...

Rear camber could be 50% more...

Both depends on how hard of a driver you are... You'll need different upright or some machining to achieve above.

Springs look a bit soft if you're driving hard with decent aero on those tires...

Alignment is also a subjective thing, but as starting points, the above is where I would start...

-Phil
 

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The only thing I don't like about your setup is the rear toe in... I'd like to see it at 1mm...but that is just personal preference. All of your numbers are in the ball park. Your car probably handles very well/predictably. What is your car doing that you don't like? Your setup only needs some fine tuning...

You don't list any bump steer number... was your bump steer even dialed in? That could be your only "problem".

All you might need is just tire pressure adjustments...do you have a pyrometer?
 

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The only thing I don't like about your setup is the rear toe in... I'd like to see it at 1mm...but that is just personal preference. All of your numbers are in the ball park. Your car probably handles very well/predictably. What is your car doing that you don't like? Your setup only needs some fine tuning...

You don't list any bump steer number... was your bump steer even dialed in? That could be your only "problem".

All you might need is just tire pressure adjustments...do you have a pyrometer?
no point in listening to anything here, it's typical meaningless drivel!

Phil's pretty much right, although I would suggest on those spring rates, adding at least 10-15mm ride height, or go up massively on spring rates.

you cannot run these cars that low and expect them to work, they don't.
 

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...Phil's pretty much right, although I would suggest on those spring rates, adding at least 10-15mm ride height, or go up massively on spring rates.

you cannot run these cars that low and expect them to work, they don't.

Ya I couldn't remember if the 211 had different uprights or not. Seems that a lot of them run quite low.

IMO, the rear roll center at 105mm rear ride height is fine on a 23" tire, I've learned, but most run 24+" rears so it gets bad again there... The front RC is inches into the pavement with a 23" tire and 100mm ride height, so different upright should be used in that case...

-Phil
 

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The 2-Eleven does ride lower than the Elise and Exige.. They have different uprights and wishbones for the lower rideheight, and increased camber.

From the Lotus supplement
"Ride height, mid-laden, front/rear 100mm/110mm (2 x 75 kg pass., ½ tank fuel)"

Factory specs for the 2-11
Front toe Alignment - 0.4 mm to zero (that is toe out), the OP used positive values which would be TOE-IN, and probably not what you want on a 2-11.

Rear toe Alignment 1.2 to 1.5 mm toe-in each side, the OP used negative values, which would bean TOE-OUT, which is also definitely not what you want.

Either they got their signs mixed up, or they need to fix their alignment.

I see the OP also went with less rake than normal. I believe Lotus uses this rake (rear being 10mm higher) for aero and balance reasons.

Blackpenquinn,

You should definitely talk with Andy APK919 here or Jack about how to set up a 2-11 for the track... Those guys know their stuff and have the race wins with the 2-11 to prove it.

Here's one of their threads
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f163/2-eleven-slicks-86501/
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
As alsways thanks guys.

This is my first Lotus and I'm still setting the car up. Right now I like most of what the car is doing. No bad habbits, very predictable.

I will talk with Jack. He's a very knowledgeable guy and only too happy to help out.

My home Tracks are Mosport and the Mosport DDT track. Mosport is a very fast track. I have been told its the fastest track in NA and third fastest in the world. Even if that's not true, its still very quick. The DDT track is much tighter.
 

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It looks like most the 2-11 people run at 100mm in front...
sure they do, but it is far from optimal.

as Phil has eluded to, the roll centres are below the tarmac.

people do the same here, apparently 10mm is worth half a second etc etc, the reality is something different though.

ignoring all of this though, at the spring rates he's at, they are just not enough to hold the car up at 100mm heights, at which point the temptation to keep winding up the damping to limit the travel will take over and the car turns into a snappy horrible monster.
 

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Like the last thread on this.... less valving and more spring is the better way to control the platform on these cars...

The good news is that a fella can learn a lot by going through their own chassis setup trials. If the car isn't behaving, you tend to come to the conclusion of how to fix it faster if you've had the first hand experience of setting the car up and changing it yourself... Hard to match experience of actually doing it with reading about it on a forum or in a book;)

To the OP, I think if you move in the direction we were pointing to, keep your RCs above the road, soften the damping (assuming it's too hard because everyone's is), and stiffen the spring rate up by maybe up to 30- 50% or so for starters, you will be a fine place to [start] the setup trials...

-Phil


-Phil
 

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no point in listening to anything here, it's typical meaningless drivel!

Phil's pretty much right, although I would suggest on those spring rates, adding at least 10-15mm ride height, or go up massively on spring rates.

you cannot run these cars that low and expect them to work, they don't.

They seem to work pretty well!!! Lotus recommends 100mm ride height for street and track for the 2-11, I've been in a 2-11 driven by Nick Adams on a race track. The Lotus cup guys appear to run at ~100mm & 110mm rear. They seem to work just fine! Watch their videos! https://www.youtube.com/user/apk919

The Lotus 2-11 manual specifically states

2-ELEVEN.C - FRONT SUSPENSION
The front suspension is based on standard Elise/Exige componentry, but the angle of the top wishbone
ball joint housing differs to better suit the lowered ride height. For the same reason, re-configured steering
arms are fitted, being machined from solid EN16 steel billets, and heat treated.
On cars with the optional 'Sports Pack', revised road springs front and rear are fitted on Ohlins dampers
featuring remote gas reservoirs, adjustable spring platforms and separate adjustments for compression and
rebound damping. The 22 compression and 60 rebound damper settings allow the characteristics to be fine
tuned to individual requirements, whilst the threaded spring platforms allow adjustment of ride height and corner
weighting. Recommended front/rear mid-laden ride height for both road and track use is 100/110mm. Front
height should always lie within the range 95 - 110mm, with a corresponding rear setting 5 - 10mm higher.


2-ELEVEN.D - REAR SUSPENSION
On cars with the optional 'Sports Pack', revised road springs front and rear are fitted on Ohlins dampers
featuring remote gas reservoirs, adjustable spring platforms and separate adjustments for compression and rebound
damping. Recommended front/rear mid-laden ride height for both road and track use is 100/110mm. Front
height should always lie within the range 95 - 110mm, with a corresponding rear setting 5 - 10mm higher.
Have you measured the roll centers on an 2-11?


A statement from Nick Adams (designer of the 2-11)
2-Eleven suspension travel - Ride/Handling/Suspension/Brakes/Wheels/Tyres - The Lotus Forums
Measured at the wheel rim from a 100 F / 110 R base ride height the car has 19mm of bump and 44mm of droop at the front and 22mm of bump and 40mm droop at the rear. Now you can see why I get sweaty when people start wanting to drop their cars below 90mm ride at the front..... :lol:
I don't have Exige S figures to hand, but it has about 10-15mm more bump and simliar droop at both the front and the rear. Note that the Exige rides at 130mm all round, so at the same ride heights as the 2-Eleven it has almost no bump travel at all!
Nick
 

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No, I don't think you're lying, or making things up.

I believe you that under normal conditions, and with normal suspension, the Elise and Exige don't run well at a 100mm ride height, but a 2-eleven is designed to run at a 100mm ride height.

When the OP says that he is running on Hoosiers, and running a 100mm ride height, and if your read Jack's comments in the link I posted...

Then you would see that Hoosiers have a shorter sidewall, therefore allowing the ride height to be lower, while maintaining the required suspension geometry to allow the suspension to work as designed...

You were right in that the 2-11 has the same hub as the federal Elise, I must have read that incorrectly, or the place I read it was misinformed. The steering arms are redesigned to allow a lower ride height than the Elige. The chassis is different than the S1 and S2, it is possible that Lotus drilled the holes different for the suspension geometry, they did this on the Esprit X180-R, changing the geometry to anti-dive and anti-squat, with a 156mm ride height compared to a 170mm stock height, and altered the steering geometry to allow the steering to work at a lowered height without bump steer...

The Lotus Cup guys run at 97/105 mm in the case of APK919 (in a post here) He wins races, he wins championships, the car isn't a monster to drive... Obviously a 100 mm ride height is not detrimental in that case!?
 

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You have lap time charts for 2-11's at varying ride heights?

I was introduced to Nick Adams as "the designer of the 2-11", or maybe it was the "father of the 2-11".

Nick Adams - United Kingdom | LinkedIn
"Cars I have led development of include the series 2 Lotus Elise, Exige, Federal Elise & Exige and the 2 Eleven."
"Responsible for four Lotus Sport programmes including design, development and build of 2007/2008 British GT3 Championship race cars and taking the Lotus 2-Eleven road legal track day car into production."
" Led development of 2006 British GT3 race programme, resulting in championship win in first year of racing"
"Worked with Lotus Product Manager and Styling department to create prototype 2-Eleven track day car in eleven weeks from initial concept to running demonstrator."
 

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No, I don't think you're lying, or making things up.

I believe you that under normal conditions, and with normal suspension, the Elise and Exige don't run well at a 100mm ride height, but a 2-eleven is designed to run at a 100mm ride height.

When the OP says that he is running on Hoosiers, and running a 100mm ride height, and if your read Jack's comments in the link I posted...

Then you would see that Hoosiers have a shorter sidewall, therefore allowing the ride height to be lower, while maintaining the required suspension geometry to allow the suspension to work as designed...

You were right in that the 2-11 has the same hub as the federal Elise, I must have read that incorrectly, or the place I read it was misinformed. The steering arms are redesigned to allow a lower ride height than the Elige. The chassis is different than the S1 and S2, it is possible that Lotus drilled the holes different for the suspension geometry, they did this on the Esprit X180-R, changing the geometry to anti-dive and anti-squat, with a 156mm ride height compared to a 170mm stock height, and altered the steering geometry to allow the steering to work at a lowered height without bump steer...

The Lotus Cup guys run at 97/105 mm in the case of APK919 (in a post here) He wins races, he wins championships, the car isn't a monster to drive... Obviously a 100 mm ride height is not detrimental in that case!?
Chassis is the same in terms of hard points.

Hubs, wishbones, etc are all the same (except the top fronts).

Yes, tyres name a difference, however, unless they are much smaller, its not that significant in the greater scheme of things.

As for the cars racing out there, can't really comment? I have no benchmarks for your tracks, however, i am pretty confident uf they are running as you suggest, i could make them faster.
 

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You have lap time charts for 2-11's at varying ride heights?

I was introduced to Nick Adams as "the designer of the 2-11", or maybe it was the "father of the 2-11".

Nick Adams - United Kingdom | LinkedIn
"Cars I have led development of include the series 2 Lotus Elise, Exige, Federal Elise & Exige and the 2 Eleven."
"Responsible for four Lotus Sport programmes including design, development and build of 2007/2008 British GT3 Championship race cars and taking the Lotus 2-Eleven road legal track day car into production."
" Led development of 2006 British GT3 race programme, resulting in championship win in first year of racing"
"Worked with Lotus Product Manager and Styling department to create prototype 2-Eleven track day car in eleven weeks from initial concept to running demonstrator."
Take most of that with a huge pinch of salt..

Last bit sums it up, worked with...

Tony shute being the PM and driver behind the 211 (but once again, not the designer)
 

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OK, back at a desk..

Have you measured the roll centers on an 2-11?

Nick Adams said:
Measured at the wheel rim from a 100 F / 110 R base ride height the car has 19mm of bump and 44mm of droop at the front and 22mm of bump and 40mm droop at the rear. Now you can see why I get sweaty when people start wanting to drop their cars below 90mm ride at the front..... :lol:
I don't have Exige S figures to hand, but it has about 10-15mm more bump and simliar droop at both the front and the rear. Note that the Exige rides at 130mm all round, so at the same ride heights as the 2-Eleven it has almost no bump travel at all!
Nick
Yes, I have, and as I have said, they are exactly the same as all the 2ZZ engined Elises/Exiges.

Right, tyres:
I'm running Hoosier A6 tires
205/45/16 up front
245/3-16 rear
(I assume he means 245/40ZR17? or is he running 16" rears and 245/45ZR16?)

Looking up the spec's for them vs. the factory fit A048R's shows that the front will be ~10mm lower and the back 5mm (or 2 for the 16") - bear in mind this is from tyre spec charts so you have to treat them with a little respect as different makers measure in different ways and this does also not tell you what the effective radius is when the car's weight is placed on them etc etc.

Right, great, at least he's going in the right direction, (although they are pretty wide tyres for the std Lotus rim widths? - once again going on the tyre chart data).

Assuming he has the 'std' Lotus Ohlins, the fronts have only 55mm of stroke and the rears 65mm (both inc bump rubber space), ie bugger all.

Roughly speaking, it's about 1.37 and 1.34 (F/R) wheel to damper ratio (varies at the front depending on where you are as it's falling rate due to the angle of the damper).

so, on that basis, with 55mm of stroke, the limits of wheel travel will be Approx 75mm - reading Nicks post 19+44=63 so being kind and assuming he's discounting the use of the bump rubber, that's probably about right for the front, however, at the rear 65mm at damper = ~87mm at the wheel, and he's talking 22+40=62mm at the rear - way off (and if true would be hopeless, 22mm of bump travel is a joke).

Right, what I am getting at is that in std trim, the 211's with their Ohlins are just wrong, you don't really have enough damper travel (specifically at the rear), but worse than that, the window if that travel is at ride heights that just won't work.

just to put this in context, here's a picture of a 211 with the chassis on stands and the rear wheel at full droop:



as you can see, the rear wishbone is already past horizontal, imagine what it looks like at ride height...

this is what people mean when they talk about roll centres being below the tarmac, it's just wrong, the chassis (and I mean the chassis for *all* Elise variants) was designed for the cars having ~150-160mm heights, just dropping them down 60+mm without making some fundamental changes to the kinematics just does not work.
 

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So what is the lowest you can run a s2 elise chassis without the roll centres getting to low that its causing problems?

Ive been told that 90/100 is the lowest you can get away with on a s1 with the normal 195/15 225/16 setup, due to the wishbone and upright differences how much higher for the s2, another 15-20mm?

Do you just lower the car until when the car is stationary sat on its own weight that the lower wishbone is horizontal? im just thinking for different people running different tyre sizes a common thing might help
 
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