Another LSS question.

5754 Views 88 Replies 29 Participants Last post by Bernman, Jan 27, 2004

OneFastLotus

Discussion Starter · Jan 2, 2004

Here's a thought.

LSS option will be available after the fact as far as I've heard. And the cost of LSS will be the $2400 xx ( I dont remember the exact cost).

So whats the point of getting it from the factory? Why not get the car with the standard wheels and suspension and then order the LSS package? Then you at least have a spare set of shocks and wheels you could keep or sell.

As far as installation....installing coil overs isnt that hard.

Have I missed something?

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Arno

· #2 · Jan 2, 2004

If the pricing is done lik here in Europe, then LSS fitted directly is cheaper.

Would not surprise me if the separate kit sold at the dealer moves closer to $3.5k

Don't forget that you 'trade in' your normal suspension/wheels when you have the factory installed option...

Installing is not a very big job. If it comes with an uprated anti-roll bar/swaybar then that's probably the biggest job.

Not much is very difficult on the Elise.. It's a very simple car anyway..

Bye, Arno.

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OneFastLotus

Discussion Starter · #3 · Jan 2, 2004

Ah ok. I havent seen figures for the "after the fact' LSS kit so I assumed it would be what was quoted on the list.

Ive never heard of having to trade in your old wheels and tires to get an upgrade? What is that? Some sort of wheel "core" or something..llike buying a starter?

Cant you just get the LSS items and do it yourself?

MikeAR303

· #4 · Jan 2, 2004

OneFastMiata said:
Have I missed something?

I would guess that dealerships would probably charge $1k+ for installation on top of whatever they decide to charge at their end for the kit...

Getting it installed after buying the car could easily push the price to $4k or more.

MikeAR303

· #5 · Jan 2, 2004

OneFastMiata said:
Cant you just get the LSS items and do it yourself?

Possibly, but it might void the warranty.

I could be proven wrong, I'm just speculating.

scot

· #6 · Jan 2, 2004

Nope, can't void the warrantee unless they can PROVE that you did it wrong. Its all in the magnusson(sp) act.

Lets state a "fact" the factory LSS works fine in a stock car. Magnusson allows for modifications that do not break the car. Therefor it is true that a car can be modified to include the LSS so it is identical to a factory delivered LSS car. So as long as you put in the parts properly, there is no way for it to break the new car therefor the warrantee should not be affected. Keep in mind however, the new parts will NOT be covered under the original warrantee, only the warrantee which they come with themselves. (Probably none)

Scot

OneFastLotus

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jan 2, 2004

And theres another issue, warranties.

Will I have to drive the car to atlanta for its 500 mile oil change? Will they allow me to change my own oil and keep receipts ( in case of future warranty claims) etc?

meat

· #8 · Jan 3, 2004

They are only offering 300 of the LSS packages. So, this is the limiting factor. I would imagine they will sell all of them on the cars from the factory.

If you are serious about tracking/auto-xing the car the LSS is not the way to go, IMHO.

If you can use any damper on the car there are other options out there - Dynamics being one. There are probably also other wheels out there that are lighter than the LSS wheels. I'm also sure there are other sway bars out there as well.

Eyelise

· #9 · Jan 3, 2004

If Lotus knows anything, it is handling. The LSS was designed to extract the most out of the car at high speed. You could probably duplicate the performance of the LSS with the highest end of parts, possibly save weight but I imagine it will be difficult to improve upon what the Lotus boys spent hours on the Hethel test track putting together. Any idea how many different tire compounds and configurations they went thru? I've always said the powertrain could be improved vastly but I'm not sure money would be wisely invested trying to outperform a LSS set-up. BTW, I read recently the LSS set-up should be good for 300HP. That 300HP number keep coming up. What's up Lotus?

CrashTestDummy

· #10 · Jan 3, 2004

There 'should' be different spring rates for the LSS suspension and stock suspension. If the LSS springs are stiffer it might be better to go that route and get the Bilsteins revalved or go to other struts. When autocrossing you must make sure to pay attention to the rules. If you dont plan to race then it might be better to go stock route. You cant use part of a group and not the whole. You couldnt use the steering rack plates for alignment with out the LSS group either. Just a thought.

adamant

· #11 · Jan 3, 2004

The LSS package is no longer limited to 300!!!
(just in case you missed the other threads)

nj1266

· #12 · Jan 3, 2004

Eyelise said:
If Lotus knows anything, it is handling. The LSS was designed to extract the most out of the car at high speed. You could probably duplicate the performance of the LSS with the highest end of parts, possibly save weight but I imagine it will be difficult to improve upon what the Lotus boys spent hours on the Hethel test track putting together.

There is no one way to set up a car. Suspension set-up is not a science it is an art. What works for one driver does not work for another. How do I know? I race my own FWD 98 SE-R. What worked for me when I strated racing does not work today. Some people like their car set up towards oversteer. Some, who are less adept, prefer a bit more neutral and understeer. Fortunately, I have set-up my suspension to allow a whole range of adjustability.

The LSS suspension does not allow you adjustability. First, it is not a coil over, so you cannot corner weight the car. Lowering the car with shims is a poor substitute for a coilover. Second, the dampers are not adjustable. Lotus should have added single adjustability.

Moreover, if hotlap the car you will need a set track dedicated rims/race tires. With the LSS that is not an option unless you get the LSS and then get the regular Lotus Elise rim/tire package.

The raceline suspension, roll bar, and bushing kit seems more promising than the LSS suspension. You get to set-up the car to the ride height that you want, the stiffness that you want and infinite roll bar adjustment.

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Eyelise

· #13 · Jan 3, 2004

If it parallels the LSS in the past, the front springs were 35lbs/inch more and the back 25. The shocks were also revalved Koni's rather than Bilsteins. A lot of consideration went into tire selection as well. The real benefit of the LSS is the R&D. I suppose if you are a SCCA racer then you will have enough time on the track and experience to tune the car to your style. Short of that the LSS makes good sense for HPDE and club events. I can't wait to get the Elise onto New Hampshire International Speedway (NHIS). The road course has 13 turns in 1.5miles.

nj1266

· #14 · Jan 3, 2004

Eyelise said:
If it parallels the LSS in the past, the front springs were 35lbs/inch more and the back 25. The shocks were also revalved Koni's rather than Bilsteins. A lot of consideration went into tire selection as well. The real benefit of the LSS is the R&D.

If the increase is that small, then you will probably see little difference between the LSS Elise and the standard one. Eibach ERS springs come with 25 lb-in increments when you have soft springs, but go up in the spring rate and the increments become in the 50 lb-in rate. I started my race car with 350 front and 300 rear. I could only tell a difference when I increased the spring rates by 50 lb-in increments. Now the car is at 650 front and 550 rear with no front bar and a 28.5 mm rear adjustable bar.

I hope I am wrong, but the LSS seems to be more gimmickry than a real improvement over the standard suspension. Anyone know what the spring rates are for the standard suspension and the LSS?

BrianK

· #15 · Jan 3, 2004

it's not only the springs that effect the stiffness of the car (as I'm sure we all know). For example, all 3rd generation RX-7's came with the same spring rates, but the R1/R2 models came with different shocks that drastically increased the stiffness of the car. If the Elise's sport suspension pack's springs are only 25 -35 pounds stiffer, I'm sure the shocks are valved in such a way that the car still feels quite a bit stiffer.

nj1266

· #16 · Jan 3, 2004

BrianK said:
it's not only the springs that effect the stiffness of the car (as I'm sure we all know). For example, all 3rd generation RX-7's came with the same spring rates, but the R1/R2 models came with different shocks that drastically increased the stiffness of the car. If the Elise's sport suspension pack's springs are only 25 -35 pounds stiffer, I'm sure the shocks are valved in such a way that the car still feels quite a bit stiffer.

That is done when you are not allowed to use springs to stiffen your suspension. In some SCCA classes (Showroom stock??) changing stock springs is prohibited, so the drivers compensate by changing to stiffer shocks on their rides. It is not optimal, but it will do. That will make the spring overdampened. I once had an Infiniti G20 and I got adjutable KYB AGXs with G20t springs. The ride was very busy and bouncy, the shocks were too much for the springs to handle, the result was an overdampened ride.

I am not suggesting that Lotus has done this, but I am saying that the shocks match the stiff springs, so I do not see Lotus using the shocks to stiffen the ride in this case.

Eyelise

· #17 · Jan 4, 2004

When you are talking about a sub 1600lb car then 25 or 50lbs/in may make a difference. The Elise has nearly 4 inches of travel so you are talking around 75lbs of lift under full load at each wheel or over 150lbs at an axel. In a light car that has got to make a difference. The dampers are valved different with higher rebound and compression to compensate for the increased spring rates. The Fed S2 is the heaviest of the Elise production line. I wouldn't be surprised if the spring rates were 75/50 higher. Most people on the list are inferring the LSS will be teeth rattling stiff. I wouldn't call that a Joke.

James A

· #18 · Jan 4, 2004

Has anyone actually driven an LSS equiped car? This "teeth rattling" stuff doesn't square with my Lotus Europa or my Caterham 7 experience. In both cases I increased spring rates, about 35% on the Caterham, and the ride is fine. Now I admit I don't do cross country tours in the Caterham, but the ride is very confortable and definately not teeth rattling. It is very possible to have a car that is superior in autocross or on the track and not have a teeth rattling road experience. I am have such a car now.
How about current Elise owners who have uprated suspensions, do any of you have teeth left?

nj1266

· #19 · Jan 4, 2004 (Edited)

Eyelise said:
When you are talking about a sub 1600lb car then 25 or 50lbs/in may make a difference. The Elise has nearly 4 inches of travel so you are talking around 75lbs of lift under full load at each wheel or over 150lbs at an axel. In a light car that has got to make a difference. The dampers are valved different with higher rebound and compression to compensate for the increased spring rates. The Fed S2 is the heaviest of the Elise production line. I wouldn't be surprised if the spring rates were 75/50 higher. Most people on the list are inferring the LSS will be teeth rattling stiff. I wouldn't call that a Joke.

Let us be clear that both of us a speculating on the LSS there are things that we do not know. We do not know the spring rate on the standard Elise and we do not know the spring rate on the LSS.

What we DO know is not inspiring when it comes to the LSS:

1. It is not a coilover. I have never heard of a shim height adjustable suspension before. I would love to see a link with pictures to how this system works. The system does not inspire confidence in me. All the height adjustable suspensions that I know of ARE coil overs.

2. The Dampers are not adjustable either. This is not good either. What is good for one driver may not be good for another. I do not like this "Lotus knows best approach" to suspension tuning. Suspension tuning is not a science it is an art. Some people like to dial more oversteer than others by stiffening the rear shocks more than the fronts. Others like their car safer with understeer dialed in the front (stiffer front, softer rear). We cannot do that with the LSS.

I have a friend of mine who owns a dialy driven Cooper S Works with I/H/E. The car puts down 200+ hp to the wheels. He got an after market coil over GAZ suspension. The rears are 40 way adjustable and the fronts are six turns adjustable. He was having suspension tuning problems at the Streets of Willow track. I was able to dial his suspension in to HIS liking and he was able to catch me in my race car when we were hotlapping together. I asked him if he wanted me to dial in mor oversteer in the car, but he said no. He wanted to get used to the current set-up and then we will dial in more oversteer for him. That is what an adjustable suspension allows you to do.

If the Elise is your second car (as most of you intend it to be), then I REALLY advise you NOT to get the LSS. You can get something better from the aftermarket.

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Arno

· #20 · Jan 4, 2004

James A said:
How about current Elise owners who have uprated suspensions, do any of you have teeth left?

Yup.. I have a Nitron suspension kit on my Elise (325/400lbs springs AFAIK) and it rides fine on the road. A lot more 'firm' though.

But.. This is mainly because the Nitron are adjustable shocks which about 22 'clicks' beteen full soft and full hard (combined compression/rebound adjustment).

On the road it's set at about 16F/14R from hard and on the track it's best at around 6F/4R from hard.

If the LSS shocks are pre-set at the 'track' level I use then it would be quite jarring on the road..

Most of the 'harshness' in the ride doesn't come from the spring rate (unless you go to silly levels), but the shock valving.

Seems like the Federal Elise 'LSS' option is different from the one we get here in europe as the one here does have threaded shock bodies to vary the ride height (but no other adjustment though..)

Might explain why it's so much cheaper (it's more around $5000 here) than here in europe.

Bye, Arno.

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