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Perhaps my view is oversimplified, but I feel like the Cayman/C8/Pricing discussions often don't see the forest for the trees. My simple caveman view is this:

1) Buyer likes Porsches? If Buyer doesn't care that everyone drives one and they all "look the same", then Buyer skips Emira and buys the Porsche. Porsche's drive excellently, price is close enough, quality is unquestionable, dealer network is incomparable.

2) Buyer likes C8? If Buyer doesn't care that everyone drives one, and doesn't yet understand the importance of the nuances of finer driving (in particular) and interior/exterior styling, then Buyer skips Emira and buys the C8. It's less expensive and makes better numbers and dealer network is incomparable.

3) All others: Buyer see Emira. Emira look GOOD. Holy crap it looks good! Buyer want now!! If Buyer can afford and there's a dealer close by enough for service, Buyer may buy. If buyer understands nuances of finer driving, they will cackle, rub hands and bounce up and down while awaiting order. If buyer doesn't understand, they will learn to appreciate once they own the car -- and a new driving enthusiast is born. If Lotus ends up at the service dept a lot, new buyer says "Lotus - never again".

The end.

Gotta run!!! Deer just trotted by outside. Must go run it down and drop it with 1 swift blow to the forehead. HONEY, here comes dinner plus shoes & jackets for the kids!!!
 

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I also thought the power output was going to be around 360 not 260 for the I4
Everyone complained about turbo's so now Lotus will be offering an NA I4 with 260hp. And no real driver needs more than 250hp for turns anyways! :)

Just look forward to the car and enjoy knowing that for every 100 Porsche's you'll see on the road, you might see one Lotus ;)
You're way off. That would have me seeing a Lotus every 5 days!
 

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The Emira has unmatched kick-butt looks, nothing's like it at the price point in this regard. It'll have amazing handling, and great communication with the driver. The latter is something you have to experience to appreciate, it doesn't show up in numbers. The Emira will have a manual for those who want it. And, it'll be (and likely, stay) relatively exotic.

And all that said, at this time Lotus appears to ALSO be treating "the driver" poorly regarding the motors, for no other major reason than a marketing gameplan. The baseline I4 engine is already here in the US with California ARB & US Federal emissions approvals at 382hp, and the engine isn't sold (or has ever been sold) anywhere in the world with less power than that, right? Only Lotus can "tune" this "special" version to produce 22hp less (360hp). In comparison the prior gen A45S engine back in 2015 put out 380hp. And a 2 year old Merc A45S people-mover comes with a 421hp version of this engine. Lotus's 360hp spec is inexcusable. As for the V6, they're apparently reducing both power and redline vs. the standard ol' Evora engine, putting aside that there were already 430hp specs produced by Lotus as well. But to be fair, for the V6 it probably won't be noticeable by the driver, it's just more the little slap in the face re: going backwards vs. advancing things.

So, these concepts are not mutually exclusive, you see? The Emira provides several things you aren't going to find in the same package elsewhere (reason enough for many to buy it), yet Lotus is also treating us poorly re: the engine. When it finally arrives here almost a year from now, the engine specs aren't "For the Drivers" but "For the Lotus Marketing Dept's long term product/sales road map."

I'm buying the Emira, can't wait to get one for all the positive reasons we know. Doesn't mean I don't feel disappointed, a little demoralized and let down by Lotus in the engine department if they detune the baseline M139 I4 by 22hp though. It's already enough of a compromise to have to deal with a turbocharger in the sound and response department. I am still holding out hope until the US spec is truly finalized though. Heck, haven't even seen a picture yet showing what the car looks like with reflectors, remember those?
 

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So GET ON THE PHONE AND TELL LOTUS. They have no idea how much more you know than they do! I'm sure Russell Carr and Gavan Kershaw, along with Matt Windle will be in awe of your advanced knowledge and wisdom! After all, they only make cars for a living, so what do they know? After years of development for this car, they probably don't know it's easy to suddenly switch engines without having any effect on planning and passing regulations! Give them a call before it's too late, and they get the FE homologated and start selling it, short-changing their customers if they'd only heard from you first!
Even a broken clock (ie, Krated :)) can be right twice a day. I don't know why you're insisting on being such an apologist for Lotus and so defensive regarding the 360hp I4? I'm sure we could pick any criticism you have for anything and come up with some hypothetical excuses to create reasons that run contrary to your criticism. My $.02c, let the debate on the detuned 360hp I4 go, IF it sticks for the US then it IS a marketing move or otherwise very worthy of the criticism it's receiving.

Hardware wise, there is very little difference between the 421hp I4 and the 382hp I4. In essense the 382hp engine is almost a detune already of the 421hp version. These are both newer engines that are very emissions efficient and nothing has changed in the laws to my knowledge that would require the engine to be so detuned. And no matter what, there is no regulation on the planet that should force a drop from 421hp down to 360hp on a newly introduced production engine.

There's plenty of meat on the bone to successfully sink your teeth into on other Emira debates ;). Defending a 360hp detune, if it happens (all this discussion can be thrown out if the 382hp version comes to the US) is only going to chip your tooth and damage your good looks :).
 

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I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. There is an obvious reason why the Emira V6 is 400hp and the I4 is de-tuned to 360hp. They are following the Evora model. Each iteration getting tweaks of the original build. Easy way to produce more variants. Think they already said there will be an Emira "R". Think it's super easy to slap a tune and some aero onto the I4 and call it the "R" or "S" or "GT" and cash in.
Exactly. And:
  • There is no emissions equipment (Gas Particulate Filter) to be added to the M139 i4 that would reduce power, GPF's have come stock on the 382hp and 421hp versions from the start.
  • There have been references on the UK Lotus Forums to Lotus personnel admitting privately the 360hp is due to "marketing".
  • An R, S etc i4 is coming with power that exceeds the 400hp+ V6 per Lotus. Heat is clearly NOT a reason for the 360hp detune
Lots of talk here about emissions & avg fleet #'s, with Lotus not having the big commuter fleet to average into. But that ignores several things, including:
  • Euro standards have a niche-manufacturer provision. Those in that niche have reduced requirements. Also note that Lotus could join a Pool of other car manufacturers and be aggregated within those.
  • There is also the ability for manufacturers selling under 10,000 cars/year to apply for a derogation from the emissions target per Article 10 of ER 2019/631 requirements.
  • In the emissions testing cycle, with an average speed of 29mph and a max speed not to exceed 81mph, and with methodology designed to simulate average driving in various urban, suburban etc conditions, how long do you think the M139 engine would be run at max-boost vs. partial boost (vs no boost at all)?
  • The difference between the stock 382hp M139 engine and a de-tune 360hp version is about 2psi more max boost on the 382hp engine, and no hardware changes. With electronic boost control the M139 can also choose what boost it runs for any given RPM (assuming there's enough load to generate max boost). That means it could also run reduced PSI/emissions up until higher rpm... Think on that.
Here's all the extra emissions the 421hp M139 makes vs. the 382hp (or even a 360hp!) version:
  • During cold start: The exact same.
  • During idle, cold day: The exact same.
  • During idle, warm day: The exact same.
  • Highway cruising, be it at 65mph, 75mph, 85mph, or 95mph: The exact same.
  • Urban commuting in traffic: The exact same.
  • Part-throttle acceleration where you aren't going to max boost: The exact same.
  • Under deceleration/braking: The exact same.
  • In every single driving situation you can think of, with the ONLY exception of putting your foot into the throttle hard enough to achieve max boost (and in those situations, how long will you realistically stay in full boost before backing off?): The exact same.
All that, and frankly it still doesn't matter $.01c until we actually hear what the final spec is for the U.S. i4 Emira. I am still hoping for the ~382hp spec in the US. But until then, the only official information we have to go on is what Lotus themselves has published, and so far that has not waivered from 360hp. Which, for whatever reasons it may be, is a detune from Lotus and for many of us a "sad" number for the i4 Emira to debut with in 2023 (US).
 

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Some of you people amaze me. Do you really think that Russel Carr, Gavan Kershaw, Matt Windle, the engineers and others at Lotus are clueless idiots? Do you actually think they're evil greedy monsters who are deliberately detuning the engines so they can upgrade them later, and it never occurred to them that people would notice? You guys act like they've never made cars before, never dealt with the public before, and have no experience with engine power and performance.

When Matt says "if you're familiar with how a Lotus drives and handles, you won't be disappointed with the Emira", that should mean something. He's actually been driving the Emira for the past year under the skin of an Evora, so he absolutely knows what they've had, and what they need to do to make the Emira better. They all do. They're replacing the internals of the manual gearbox with their own gears and gearing. They're not using Toyota's or Mercedes' software, they're using their own software and tuning. They're making their own intake and exhaust. There's more to performance than simple engine bhp, and every one of them knows it, which is why they're working on all of it as a complete system; intake, engine, software and tuning, exhaust and gearing, to make the Emira be the best Lotus they've ever made, which includes comparing it to the cars they've made in the past. They know people are going to make that comparison; they themselves have been making that comparison the whole time while developing the Emira. If you don't believe they know what they're doing, then buy something else. They're not some nefarious, underhanded corporation trying to rip people off and fleece them for every cent they can.

If you can't be patient and give them a chance to show what they can do when they finally reveal a production spec car, if you're just overwhelmed with horror and disgust because the published bhp listed is less than you like, then by all means retrieve your deposit and go buy something else. You don't have to do this if it's going to make you that unhappy.
You like to keep putting words in the mouth of people who don't subscribe to your narrative. It feels like you'll attack any post that dares to question anything about the Emira or the marque, which I guess we should assume from your posts will be the perfect car, from the perfect company(?) Lotus knows better than the rest of us and the industry, yes?

But more than anything, your arguments usually set up Straw Men, and you mischaracterize if not flat-out ignore the spirit and the points of the arguments made (so you can then knock the straw men down). Here's an informative article so you can learn more about the technique you are employing, whether intentional or not: https://effectiviology.com/straw-man-arguments-recognize-counter-use/
 

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Thanks for all this info! The only thing holding me back on the i4 slightly is the pops, snaps and bangs I hear from that engine….Really wish lotus would release some sound clips prior to me being forced to choose…
I'm optimistic on this, actually. The string of crackle noises when letting off the gas seems mainly engineered. I'll take a page out of Eagle7's book actually and say "I trust Lotus will make the right tuning decisions here." :). I can't imagine Lotus would feel any better about including low-class artificial over-amp'ed exhaust pops than they would about pumping fake engine sound into the cabin via speakers...

Side note, I'm not responding/contributing further regarding the I4/Eagle debate. I think everyone's presented their points and no one is changing anyone's minds. Eagle & I may discuss a couple points further privately though :).
 

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You keep saying this, except it's not true. They don't write the "ECU software" the OEM provides that. If they make customizations they're minimal and typically those requirements are sent to the OEM anyway. They do ECU tuning, which isn't that complex. The complex parts are the edge cases.

In the case of the V6, that engine has been in development for over 10-years and the AMG i4 will come with base parameters from Mercedes. Let's stop inflating how complex certain things are. Maybe they're complex to you, but not to someone who works in that field. For reference, my friend used to be an ECU tuner for a major manufacturer.
Lol, exactly. If I would have the option to pay $3000+ to simply keep the Mercedes ECU tune as-is and not touch that or the encryption settings, I'd only ask what forms of payment they take and "would end of the day" be fine? :) Mercedes doesn't make it near-impossible for the aftermarket to tune the ECU. The aftermarket can tone down the stock Mercedes pops, give us back some HP, plus make the engine work better if a freer-flowing aftermarket exhaust system is added.

Porterror, some of the Lotus Esprits had turbo 4's and 8's, but that's mainly academic considering how long ago that was. With turbo engines, they inherently don't sound nearly as good as NA or SC'ed because a turbo engine config has a big heavy housing with a turbine wheel that the exhaust gases all have to funnel/pass through which removes a lot of the best sound. Add the modern wrinkle of GPF filters (basically like adding an additional catalytic converter) and more muffling occurs on top of that. And the i4's found in cars are generally not the best sounding to begin with IMO :).

I've gotten ahead of this issue already however. I've booked this guy to ride shotgun with me on weekends for 2023.

 
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