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I think being critical on areas that need improvement is not a bad thing, the goal is to get better. I was very critical of many bad workmanship issues with my Evora, I also pointed out many good things about the car. The C8 Z06 will be announced on the 26th of this month. I believe it comes in under the Emira MSRP LE price with a FPC NA high rev 9k RPM motor. If that is the case and you can get one with a few options it will be a bargain super car. Still wont have a manual Like the Emira.
 

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I think being critical on areas that need improvement is not a bad thing, the goal is to get better. I was very critical of many bad workmanship issues with my Evora, I also pointed out many good things about the car. The C8 Z06 will be announced on the 26th of this month. I believe it comes in under the Emira MSRP LE price with a FPC NA high rev 9k RPM motor. If that is the case and you can get one with a few options it will be a bargain super car. Still wont have a manual Like the Emira.
Lots of Die hard corvette manual lovers will consider the EMIRA, while others are buying used C7 Z06 manual's for $75k or base C7 manual's for $45k as their other option, but for many the EMIRA offers new car ownership, and is unique and rare unlike used C7's.
 

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I respect your enthusiasm about the Emira and Lotus. Thanks for your contribution and information you brought the forum.

When you say “don’t bad-mouth Lotus” , you are saying “A Corvette is a loud beer-drinking brawler” , isn’t it a bad-mouth?

Corvette C8 is a naturally aspirated mid-engine car, much improved almost every aspect, a greatly different car from all the previous generation front-engine models.
C8, a Corvette is not any more deserved to hear ”bad-mouth.”

C8 is not perfect, but GM nailed it, in terms of their strength points.

Lotus nailed it too, Emira, in terms of their strength points.
Actually what I said wasn't bad-mouthing the C8 at all. Nor did I bad-mouth GM. The C8 is what it is, and it offers the best bang for the buck of any mid-engine car out there, which is something I've said more than once. Compared to the Emira, it is a loud, beer-drinking brawler. People like that. They like power and noise. That's what is seducing them for the Z06; even more power and noise.

When I refer to bad-mouthing Lotus, I'm talking about disparaging them as a company, as though they're stupid, incompetent, ignorant, or just plain greedy and evil because they aren't offering a supercar in every way, including power, for under $90k. GM pretty much is with the C8, but they're a vastly different company than Lotus, and in a completely different position to be able to make and offer the C8 at the price they do.

.....EXCEPT for the brain dead, village idiot, moronic dope that thought it would be smart to detune the engine. There needs to be mandatory drug testing for those in the marketing dept who thought it would be smart to launch with a detuned I4 engine. Someone in marketing is smoking crack cocaine in the company bathroom.

The EVORA looked like the brand it represented at the time, which was more unstable than some 3rd world countries.
You don't know exactly what they've done with the engine, or why yet. I believe it was Gavan that said they've been working on the software and tuning to meet the current emissions requirements, which are tougher than they've ever been before. There may also be the difference between the U.K. rating which has the particulate filter, and the U.S. which doesn't require that. According to Carfection when they got a U.K. spec C8 to test, that filter cost about 2.5% of the power and torque of the engine compared to the U.S. numbers. If that's happening to the Emira, then the 360 hp for the AMG and the 400 hp for the V6 they're listing, may be the reduced power numbers that the filter causes. Take that off, and now you have about 416 for the V6 in the U.S., and about 370 for the AMG in the U.S.

We just don't know the final numbers yet, so I think it's both premature and unfair to Lotus to start damning them because they aren't offering 500 hp right out of the box. As I've said before, this isn't the beginning of their new future, it's the end of their old past; their last ICE car. However it does show what this new Lotus is able to do with design; both exterior and interior. Their future is electric, and the Evija has that 500 hp; PER WHEEL. The electric Lotus' are going to be the performance monsters. Combined with their design and chassis skills, they may very well be the electric cars that set the standard for everyone else to follow.
 

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You don't know exactly what they've done with the engine, or why yet. I believe it was Gavan that said they've been working on the software and tuning to meet the current emissions requirements, which are tougher than they've ever been before. There may also be the difference between the U.K. rating which has the particulate filter, and the U.S. which doesn't require that. According to Carfection when they got a U.K. spec C8 to test, that filter cost about 2.5% of the power and torque of the engine compared to the U.S. numbers. If that's happening to the Emira, then the 360 hp for the AMG and the 400 hp for the V6 they're listing, may be the reduced power numbers that the filter causes. Take that off, and now you have about 416 for the V6 in the U.S., and about 370 for the AMG in the U.S.
We just don't know the final numbers yet, so I think it's both premature and unfair to Lotus to start damning them because they aren't offering 500 hp right out of the box. As I've said before, this isn't the beginning of their new future, it's the end of their old past; their last ICE car. However it does show what this new Lotus is able to do with design; both exterior and interior. Their future is electric, and the Evija has that 500 hp; PER WHEEL. The electric Lotus' are going to be the performance monsters. Combined with their design and chassis skills, they may very well be the electric cars that set the standard for everyone else to follow.
No sense in debating this because the argument on both sides has already been presented. In summary, ( as I posted before) if Mercedes can put a 415hp version in a USA spec car, I am sure that LOTUS can do the same with Geely's tech help or AMG's tech help.

With all due respect, you need to stop defending LOTUS on this low horsepower detune stupidity, and instead confront the stupidity of LOTUS detuning this same engine that produces 415HP in Mercedes USA emissions compliant autos.

If you want to get "real" please don't defend the fact that LOTUS has some imaginary hurdles that they have to overcome that Mercedes does not have to also overcome to certify the exact same engine for the USA market. The only rational I myself would accept is that AMG/M-B is giving LOTUS the engine with the stipulation that it cannot make the same power that they are advertising in their own AMG products to somehow make their own Mercedes products appear superior in a marketing sense, with the caveat that after a few years when M-B phases out this engine that LOTUS can then go wild with the true max spec.

Defending selling a $75k sports car with a detuned engine that makes 360-380hp that weighs 3100lbs is ridiculous, especially from a brand with a weak dealer network that is looking to entice and lure prospective buyers from Porsche or Corvette, or Jaguar. That's besides the point that the previous platform already had 415hp in their V6. What manufacturer presents a new updated platform with LESS power than the previous platform, and then expects success ?

next you will defend the claim that Tess Holliday is anorexic.
 

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I have to step in and say C8 generation is the most refined Corvette generation often compared to Mercedes or 911 in terms of comfort, ride compliance, and interior noise. Also not that loud even w/ the sport exhaust option w/ valves open in Sport Mode unless you mod it. I've heard stock ones accelerate hard from a light and they sound pretty tame (common criticism). Emira seems more raucous in videos.

Handling is compared to the 458 by a few 458 owners (they say it's 95% matched) and C8/458 dual owner who have YouTube channels. Everyday Driver gives it a perfect score alongside a Cayman comparo and they praise its handling precision.

I am cross-shopping the C8 because of its radical 180 degree change from its brute sledgehammer image of the C7 and prior. C8 Z06 will be an even more precise track-bred handling weapon, supercar killer, and exotic high-revving flat-plane crank screamer. Complete 180 (literally) in crank plane orientation from prior deep, rumbly 90-degree plane crank American V8s.

I know the price of the first Edition and I see that after that the 4cyl base model will start at$73k but what is the price for 2023 6cyl base?
My guess is closer to @kratedisease's. V6 FE's $94k price probably includes $12k worth of options from forged wheels, fully decked safety/interior tech/KEF sound system, Black Pack, Drivers Pack) but FE buyers deserve maybe a $2k discount. That math makes for an $84k base V6--about halfway between the base i4 and well-optioned V6 FE. If base V6 is $80k, it would cost less than a moderately optioned i4 (say $6k in options + $75k) at $81k. Unless Lotus closes the 40hp gap because $5k for +40hp seems unheard of.
 

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"The EVORA looked like the brand it represented at the time, which was more unstable than some 3rd world countries".
Says the man that has, correct me if I'm wrong, has never even driven one......this is why you get snarked on so much, the above statement is being as A$$hole. Considering how unstable the company was, the vehicle was far more remarkable than anything Generally Mediocre produced in that time frame. You could even drive them on a wet track.....
 
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No sense in debating this because the argument on both sides has already been presented. In summary, ( as I posted before) if Mercedes can put a 415hp version in a USA spec car, I am sure that LOTUS can do the same with Geely's tech help or AMG's tech help.

With all due respect, you need to stop defending LOTUS on this low horsepower detune stupidity, and instead confront the stupidity of LOTUS detuning this same engine that produces 415HP in Mercedes USA emissions compliant autos.

If you want to get "real" please don't defend the fact that LOTUS has some imaginary hurdles that they have to overcome that Mercedes does not have to also overcome to certify the exact same engine for the USA market. The only rational I myself would accept is that AMG/M-B is giving LOTUS the engine with the stipulation that it cannot make the same power that they are advertising in their own AMG products to somehow make their own Mercedes products appear superior in a marketing sense, with the caveat that after a few years when M-B phases out this engine that LOTUS can then go wild with the true max spec.

Defending selling a $75k sports car with a detuned engine that makes 360-380hp that weighs 3100lbs is ridiculous, especially from a brand with a weak dealer network that is looking to entice and lure prospective buyers from Porsche or Corvette, or Jaguar. That's besides the point that the previous platform already had 415hp in their V6. What manufacturer presents a new updated platform with LESS power than the previous platform, and then expects success ?

next you will defend the claim that Tess Holliday is anorexic.
"With all due respect"... then you puke out a bunch of immature, entitlement attitude nonsense. Do you even read what's posted or just go into tantrum mode automatically if you don't see what you want? Do you have any idea how emissions and mileage requirements work with credits and such? Mercedes has many different models, so does GM. Lotus has ONE. Mercedes and GM can take the ratings from their other models that exceed emissions and mileage requirements, and apply that surplus ratings-wise to their vehicles that don't meet the requirements, and that averages out the overall requirements for the company. Lotus can't do that. They're making only one car, so that one car has to meet ALL the homologation requirements completely by itself. That includes the engine/transmission performance. They can play around with performance curves to a point, but in the end when the car gets hooked up to the analyzers, it has to pass every single requirement by itself or they won't be able to sell it. They don't have the luxury of 'borrowing' the surplus performance of other cars they make to qualify the Emira, the way Mercedes, GM and other vehicle manufacturers do with their cars that don't pass requirements by themselves.

That's not defending, it's called being mature, intelligent and understanding what's involved and why. Lotus has to FIRST get the car certified for the U.K. and Europe. Their regulations and requirements are more strict than the U.S. requirements. That's just the hard reality of the way it is, it has nothing to do with defending, making excuses, or the idea that a company like Lotus would agree to accept a handicapped engine from another company just because. Their engineers do their own programming; they don't use what's coming from Toyota or Mercedes, they've already said that, so they aren't going to simply drop in a crate engine as-is.

We haven't even seen a final production spec car, yet you're already condemning them as though they're complete morons, when in reality, you're the one coming across that way. I highly recommend you get a Z06 instead of an Emira, because it doesn't sound like you're going to be happy with Lotus or the Emira no matter what they do.
 

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"With all due respect"... then you puke out a bunch of immature, entitlement attitude nonsense. Do you even read what's posted or just go into tantrum mode automatically if you don't see what you want? Do you have any idea how emissions and mileage requirements work with credits and such? Mercedes has many different models, so does GM. Lotus has ONE. Mercedes and GM can take the ratings from their other models that exceed emissions and mileage requirements, and apply that surplus ratings-wise to their vehicles that don't meet the requirements, and that averages out the overall requirements for the company. Lotus can't do that. They're making only one car, so that one car has to meet ALL the homologation requirements completely by itself. That includes the engine/transmission performance. They can play around with performance curves to a point, but in the end when the car gets hooked up to the analyzers, it has to pass every single requirement by itself or they won't be able to sell it. They don't have the luxury of 'borrowing' the surplus performance of other cars they make to qualify the Emira, the way Mercedes, GM and other vehicle manufacturers do with their cars that don't pass requirements by themselves.

That's not defending, it's called being mature, intelligent and understanding what's involved and why. Lotus has to FIRST get the car certified for the U.K. and Europe. Their regulations and requirements are more strict than the U.S. requirements. That's just the hard reality of the way it is, it has nothing to do with defending, making excuses, or the idea that a company like Lotus would agree to accept a handicapped engine from another company just because. Their engineers do their own programming; they don't use what's coming from Toyota or Mercedes, they've already said that, so they aren't going to simply drop in a crate engine as-is.

We haven't even seen a final production spec car, yet you're already condemning them as though they're complete morons, when in reality, you're the one coming across that way. I highly recommend you get a Z06 instead of an Emira, because it doesn't sound like you're going to be happy with Lotus or the Emira no matter what they do.
OK, understood, got it
 

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"The EVORA looked like the brand it represented at the time, which was more unstable than some 3rd world countries".
Says the man that has, correct me if I'm wrong, has never even driven one......this is why you get snarked on so much, the above statement is being as A$$hole. Considering how unstable the company was, the vehicle was far more remarkable than anything Generally Mediocre produced in that time frame. You could even drive them on a wet track.....
Interesting point of view.
 

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i dont get why everyone is drooling over the fpc in the upcoming z06. dont get me wrong i love that design but ford did it in 2016 and in a very competent overall package car. i owned a gt350 for about a year and absolutely loved it but it didnt sell all that well overall
 

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i dont get why everyone is drooling over the fpc in the upcoming z06. dont get me wrong i love that design but ford did it in 2016 and in a very competent overall package car. i owned a gt350 for about a year and absolutely loved it but it didnt sell all that well overall
Not sure about everyone else but for me specifically:
1) My next fun car must be mid-engine, not another FR
2) I'm a fan of NA
3) 458 is among the top of my dream cars. Z06 may be the last FPC mid-engine NA V8 ever, only new one w/ warranty, and only one this affordable. My attainable 458

It's not only about the engine but the package around the engine. I love Mustangs and own an S550. But I watched the C8.R debut at Daytona and befriended C8 executive staff (Product Manager Harlan Charles and Design Manager Kurt Bennion). C8.R has dominated yearly since its debut and the Z06 is the street version of that race car, homologated with the 5.5L FPC V8. So there's a motorsport culture element to it (for me at least).
 

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Not sure about everyone else but for me specifically:
1) My next fun car must be mid-engine, not another RWD
2) I'm a fan of NA
3) 458 is among the top of my dream cars. Z06 may be the last FPC mid-engine NA V8 ever, only new one w/ warranty, and only one this affordable. My attainable 458

It's not only about the engine but the package around the engine. I love Mustangs and own an S550. But I watched the C8.R debut at Daytona and befriended C8 executive staff (Product Manager Harlan Charles and Design Manager Kurt Bennion). C8.R has dominated yearly since its debut and the Z06 is the street version of that race car, homologated with the 5.5L FPC V8. So there's a motorsport culture element to it (for me at least).
i hear ya, dont need to convince me brother. like i said i loved my gt350 and it was an awesome package with the 8k+ redline, mag ride, recaros and manual-only. just wish more people had bought em before they were discontinued in 2020
 

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Not sure about everyone else but for me specifically:
1) My next fun car must be mid-engine, not another RWD
So you want a mid engine front wheel drive car?

Don’t see many of those around.
 

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Why doesn't the Emira have 415hp like the Evora GT? Why is the Lotus AMG I4 rated for less HP than other cars with the same engine?

I have no idea but here's some guesses based on past experience. As for the V6 it may not make less HP. Maybe less peak HP, but the total area under the dyne plot is the HP throughout the rev range. Sometimes tuning for peak HP sacrifices mid-range HP or torque. Maybe 400 peak ponies yield a more drivable car with better pull at all RPMs, and maybe those peaks better line up with the gearing for better overall performance.

Why not max the turbo HP? Any Lotus needs track cred. Turbos heat soak, they heat up engines, and then go into limp mode. I have seen a lot of turbo-4 cars that go to the track sitting because of heat issues; Civic Type R, Focus ST/RS, STIs, etc. These are not garage tuner specials, but right from the factory performance cars. Maybe at 400hp you get two hot laps and then sit in limp mode for an hour while everything cools down. Maybe at 360hp you can flog the car all day without issues?

I am less worried about the numbers and more looking forward to the reviews when production Emiras are taken to the track.
 

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I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. There is an obvious reason why the Emira V6 is 400hp and the I4 is de-tuned to 360hp. They are following the Evora model. Each iteration getting tweaks of the original build. Easy way to produce more variants. Think they already said there will be an Emira "R". Think it's super easy to slap a tune and some aero onto the I4 and call it the "R" or "S" or "GT" and cash in.

Rectangle Font Parallel Screenshot Pattern
 

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The GT430 Sport was rated at 430HP with 29.1MPG combined? Damn!!

The more I learn about the Evoras, the more I'm disappointed with the initial Emira power. Maybe I'm just too impatient to wait for the inevitable Emira R or Emira GT or whatever they decide to call it... I want it now!! As badly as I want a First Edition, it just seems like a bad move with the limited colors and baseline power output. Depreciation will be rough IF the future R/GT comes out with the V6 manual setup. How hard would it be for them to just release the First Editions with 416-430HP, a red engine cover, and optional carbon seats? :confused:
 
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There is an obvious reason why the Emira V6 is 400hp and the I4 is de-tuned to 360hp.
No one is arguing this. What some people are arguing is that Lotus is not in a position to play this game. They aren't Porsche. They have a terrible dealership network, little brand cache and a reputation for unreliability. The Emira being on par or "within spitting distance" just isn't good enough IMO to get people making the trek to a "local" dealer. You do this by beating your main competition (Porsche) and beating them cleanly. That will get Joe-Porsche's attention. There appears to be very little the Emira clearly beats Porsche at. Maybe looks, but that's also subjective.

I think in the end some people are just tired of excuses from and making excuses for Lotus. You got billions of dollars and IMO what is there to show for it? A possibly heavier, better looking, de-tuned Evora GT with a nicer interior for $94k? Sorry, to me, that's just not good enough. Maybe I am in the minority and I hope Lotus does well, but I was excited for the Type 131, and was completely underwhelmed by its announcement. I am sure it will be a good car, but I am going to wait and hope it matures into something better. In the meantime I think I will try some other brands.
 

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No one is arguing this. What some people are arguing is that Lotus is not in a position to play this game. They aren't Porsche. They have a terrible dealership network, little brand cache and a reputation for unreliability. The Emira being on par or "within spitting distance" just isn't good enough IMO to get people making the trek to a "local" dealer. You do this by beating your main competition (Porsche) and beating them cleanly. That will get Joe-Porsche's attention. There appears to be very little the Emira clearly beats Porsche at. Maybe looks, but that's also subjective.

I think in the end some people are just tired of excuses from and making excuses for Lotus. You got billions of dollars and IMO what is there to show for it? A possibly heavier, better looking, de-tuned Evora GT with a nicer interior for $94k? Sorry, to me, that's just not good enough. Maybe I am in the minority and I hope Lotus does well, but I was excited for the Type 131, and was completely underwhelmed by its announcement. I am sure it will be a good car, but I am going to wait and hope it matures into something better. In the meantime I think I will try some other brands.
Totally agree with the V6FE pricing. Huge miss. I think the DCT I4 @ 77k is the better deal. Still wished it came in at the lower end of 70s.
 
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