The Lotus Cars Community banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hey Guys,
It is that time of year again (race season). It has been a while since I have visited the board but I remember some grumblings of trying to improve braking. I feel the braking on this car should be a lot better with my current setup.

I do remember there was a US dealership thinking it could be the vacuum hose could be getting pinched or may need an accumulator of some sort? Regardless it seems very hard to get into abs let alone feel the brakes biting.

Currently I am running EBC pads with steel hoses with motul, and stock rotors.

Any help would be great
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
846 Posts
Ditch the EBC's and go with Pagid RS-14's...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Are they really going to make that much of a difference.... I have heard good and bad about both......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
803 Posts
brake pads and your style of driving...

I have talked to several people that are disappointed with the braking on the Elise. Invariably it is due to the manufacturer of the brake pads. The following is my opinion and your experience, depending on how you drive, will vary.

I do not like Hawks, Pagids, or EBC pads. I opted for Ferodo 2500 because they matched my style of driving.

Aggressive pads will form a glaze if used lightly and infrequently. Suddenly when you need to brake hard, as for an emergency, you will find the brakes are not hot and are glazed over. No matter how hard you press on the pedal, the braking is not there. Scary! Several hard stops, from 70 to 30mph, will removed the glaze and restore the braking. You might be surprised at how well your brakes will work hot.

The original equipment brakes were excellent. They have a wide tolerance on usage and seem to always be ready to stop. Unfortunately they are expensive. The Ferodo's were close to OEM. When in doubt, go back to the OEM brake pads.

My thoughts,

Michael
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
723 Posts
I concur. And that is why I stock Ferodo 2500s. How can you beat the $217ish that I am selling a set for? :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,795 Posts
Agree, I think those EBC pads suck, I would ditch them. I think the stock pads have a better initial bite. The thing you're talking about is a supposed fix for ice mode, not sure if that ended up being the actual fix or not.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
Took the car out racing this weekend, I tried applying a lot more pressure to the brake and it seems to fix a lot of my issues. It seems like I have to use an amazing amount of force to get it to start engaging in ABS.

I am most likely due for a rotor brake change int he future I will try ebc rotors and pagid pads, a lot of people seem to be happy with that setup.

Regardless I still think the car should still be able to stop A TON better being a small mid engine car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,981 Posts
Ryan are you complaining that the car won't stop as short as you imagine it should, or just about the amount of pedal force required?

Have you driven somebody else's car to verify that something is actually unusual in yours? Or are you just comparing to some other car you are used to?

If you want to run over to McKinney tonight you can run my car around the block to see if it really feels a lot different.

xtn
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Xtn, I drove Ryan's car this weekend and I believe it is pedal effort that is the issue. On data acquisition we were pulling almost 1.2 G's longitudinal force under breaking. That is close to the 1.27 max lateral G force we were achieving. The get 1.2 G's in breaking though you need to stand on the pedal like there is no tomorrow. Even then it is very rare that you get into the ABS. With that amount of pedal force it is very difficult to modulate the braking force and smoothly transition from braking to turn in. I have driven many different types of cars ranging from stock brake setups to full race setups. I have never encountered a car that has required that much pedal pressure to achieve full braking force.

Do EBC pads have a habit of glazing rotors? Is it easy to visually tell when rotors have been glazed? Ryan drives his car on the street in addition to racing so it probably gets a lot of light pedal pressure braking applications.

I think if there was an easy way to decrease the pedal effort but achieve the same level of deceleration it would be ideal.

Thanks,
John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,374 Posts
Xtn, I drove Ryan's car this weekend and I believe it is pedal effort that is the issue. On data acquisition we were pulling almost 1.2 G's longitudinal force under breaking. That is close to the 1.27 max lateral G force we were achieving. The get 1.2 G's in breaking though you need to stand on the pedal like there is no tomorrow. Even then it is very rare that you get into the ABS.
You are complaining that the breaks aren't working very well because it can stop with more than 1 G of braking? And the ABS doesn't come on until the breaking is at a higher point than most cars can even approach? I don't get it. :confused:


Not long after I got my car, I wanted to test the ABS. I took it up to about 60 and stomped on the brakes hard. No ABS. I did it again, and stomped harder than I have ever done it in any other car. No ABS. I tried again, and pushed as hard as I could and, while hanging in the seat belts, the ABS kicked in and the car simply STOPPED! I guess it may be a bit hard to modulate the brakes when the car is stopping with over 1 G of braking force, but who the hell cares? It will out stop anything else out there. If I need to modulate the brakes to stop at a slower rate, I simply won't stop as fast.

The brakes in the Elsie are simply phenomenal. :bow:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
662 Posts
Aggressive pads will form a glaze if used lightly and infrequently. Several hard stops, from 70 to 30mph, will removed the glaze and restore the braking. You might be surprised at how well your brakes will work hot.
Do the 2500's glaze over on you or are you describing other pads?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
308 Posts
Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
You are complaining that the breaks aren't working very well because it can stop with more than 1 G of braking? And the ABS doesn't come on until the breaking is at a higher point than most cars can even approach? I don't get it. :confused:


Not long after I got my car, I wanted to test the ABS. I took it up to about 60 and stomped on the brakes hard. No ABS. I did it again, and stomped harder than I have ever done it in any other car. No ABS. I tried again, and pushed as hard as I could and, while hanging in the seat belts, the ABS kicked in and the car simply STOPPED! I guess it may be a bit hard to modulate the brakes when the car is stopping with over 1 G of braking force, but who the hell cares? It will out stop anything else out there. If I need to modulate the brakes to stop at a slower rate, I simply won't stop as fast.

The brakes in the Elsie are simply phenomenal. :bow:
I think phenomenal is a bit much here.... we are a light car and a viper has better braking 60-0 and an elise is foot faster then gt500 shelby mustang on 60-0.......
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
You are complaining that the breaks aren't working very well because it can stop with more than 1 G of braking? And the ABS doesn't come on until the breaking is at a higher point than most cars can even approach? I don't get it. :confused:


Not long after I got my car, I wanted to test the ABS. I took it up to about 60 and stomped on the brakes hard. No ABS. I did it again, and stomped harder than I have ever done it in any other car. No ABS. I tried again, and pushed as hard as I could and, while hanging in the seat belts, the ABS kicked in and the car simply STOPPED! I guess it may be a bit hard to modulate the brakes when the car is stopping with over 1 G of braking force, but who the hell cares? It will out stop anything else out there. If I need to modulate the brakes to stop at a slower rate, I simply won't stop as fast.

The brakes in the Elsie are simply phenomenal. :bow:
I am not complaining about the ability for the car to stop in X distance. The stopping power is phenomenal! The brake feel/pedal pressure is what I am having a hard time with. The amount of pedal pressure you have to apply to get the car to stop is a lot higher then I am used to. I believe it is a problem with the brake pad/disc combo, the brake pads, or the brake booster. What I would like is to maintain the same level of braking ability but with much less pedal effort. If we were able to achieve that we could modulate the brakes better when trail braking or threshold braking.

John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,795 Posts
I've driven this car and noticed the same thing. The first time I drove it we came up to a 90 degree turn and I pushed on the brakes pretty hard (hard enough to engage ABS in my Elise as well as any other car I've driven) and the car simply didn't stop at all. Next time around Ryan suggested stomping as hard as I could and finally the car did stop. It felt like a 300+ pound leg press to get the car to stop and that's not right. I'm not sure if it's the pads or steel brake lines but I haven't experienced anything like this in any other Elise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
I've driven this car and noticed the same thing. The first time I drove it we came up to a 90 degree turn and I pushed on the brakes pretty hard (hard enough to engage ABS in my Elise as well as any other car I've driven) and the car simply didn't stop at all. Next time around Ryan suggested stomping as hard as I could and finally the car did stop. It felt like a 300+ pound leg press to get the car to stop and that's not right. I'm not sure if it's the pads or steel brake lines but I haven't experienced anything like this in any other Elise.
I am glad someone else has experienced this. The brakes felt the same way when his pads and lines were stock. He actually upgraded the pads and lines because I was bitching about how bad the brakes were. It improved slightly with the new pads but no where near what you would expect for that upgrade. I have not driven another Elise before so I just assumed that his how Elise brakes are. Since you are saying that on your car it does not feel that way it is really making me think it is an issue with the brake booster. I am wondering if it is not working at all or only providing partial boost. That would easily explain the Herculean effort required to get expected deceleration out of the car. Thank you for posting and providing the info.

John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
401 Posts
Here we go again. First, I tracked my 2005 Elise for 2.5 years on lots of tracks so I have a good baseline. Pagid RS14s bite and hold way better than the stock pads - I just put the stock pads back on because I'm returning the car to street mode and couldn't believe how much worse. With the Pagids and Hoosiers, I had no problem getting into ABS - you just have to go fast and threshold brake. I installed the stainless steel lines but couldn't say if that made any difference. On the other hand, I did repeatedly experience the "ice mode" problem, which I attribute to two things: (1) vacuum loss during extended WOT followed by sudden heavy braking, and (2) premature ABS activation caused by the combination of race suspension, sticky tires, race brakes, and a bumpy brake zone. For example, I would experience the "hard-as-a-brick pedal and 25% brake effect" at the end of the front straight at Summit Point almost every lap unless I drove around the problem. I didn't like it. If I were still tracking the car I would try a brake upgrade or maybe soften the suspension. I did replace the vacuum check valve at the brake booster which helped part of the problem but not all.
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top