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Sownman said:

I will not buy an Elise at over MSRP. I will no longer be a Lotus fan if they allow dealers to charge over sticker without any ramifications, such as stopping or cutting allocation of those dealers that rape Lotus customers.

Steve
A while back when the new M3 convertible was hot I remember seeing dealers on ebay selling the car with minimum starting bids well over MSRP. It pissed me off and I wrote to BMW who basically told me that the dealer is free to ask any price they want. I would be surprised if Lotus does otherwise, so I wouldn't hold it against them...
 

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I fully support the ability for dealers to gouge to their hearts' content... its capitalism at its best and worst

Personal story: 4 years ago when the s2000 was so hot (and brand new), I wanted one. I missed the initial boat on getting a deposit down with a respectable dealer, so I went shopping once they started delivering.

Long story short - either I ran into "fair" dealers who were fully allocated for the year or I found dealers who had inventory but were charging killer mark-up. The worst case was a salesman who said, "we have one coming in tomorrow, $10k over sticker". I said to him, "I could get a new Porsche boxster for that". He said, "go ahead".

Now, I'm defending his right to charge whatever he wants, but do you think I would ever set foot back in that dealership again OR recommend any of my freinds/family to do the same?

"Hot products" are a double edged sword, and its the institution which treats me with respect and as a "long term customer" where I'll spend my money, not at a place that's looking for a quick sale.

The bottom line for me is - its only a car - I'm prepared to walk away from a bad situation. Its the greedy dealers who make out for people who can't control themselves. It takes two to tango.

P.S. I ended up finding the car on the internet for $2k over sticker, which at the time I was prepared to spend, so I bought it.
 

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I FOUND THIS ON THE WEB :

Several practices which have been found illegal per se under Section 1 include price-fixing, resale price maintenance, group boycotts, and tying arrangements [Fortner Enterprises v. U.S. Steel Corp., (1977)], [United States v. Parke, Davis & Co., (1960)], [United States v. General Motors (1966)],

Price Fixing is the formation of an agreement to set prices. In order to prove price-fixing, it must be shown that the parties actually agreed to fix prices or to retain existing uniform price structures [Credit Bureau Reports, Inc., v. Retail Credit Co., (1971)(1973)]. Horizontal price-fixing is an agreement between direct competitors on the same level of the market structure [ Credit Bureau v. Retail Credit]. Price-fixing can also occur vertically, by formation of a combination between the manufacturer and distributors to maintain retail prices [Albrecht v. The Herald (1968)].

Vertical price-fixing is also known as resale price maintenance. A manufacturer or group of distributors engages in resale price maintenance by fixing the price at which a product will be sold to the public. Resale price maintenance does not occur by simply suggesting list prices and refusing to deal with non-complying retailers. It requires the announcement of a price accompanied by threatening or taking some coercive course of action if the retailer is unwilling to adopt the price [Carlson Mach Tools v. American Tool (1982)]. Whether imposed by horizontal or vertical restraint, price-fixing is per se unreasonable restraint of trade in violation of Section 1 of the Sherman Act.

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AND THEN THIS:

Court: Vertical price fixing isn't necessarily illegal
November 4, 1997
Web posted at: 1:34 p.m. EST (1834 GMT)
WASHINGTON (CNN)-- The Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that suppliers of goods and services don't necessarily violate antitrust laws by setting maximum prices their retailers can charge.

In a case brought to the high court by oil companies -- State Oil vs. Khan -- the court unanimously decided to overturn an existing law that makes such "vertical price fixing" automatically, or "per se," illegal.

Writing for the court Tuesday, Justice Sandra Day O'Connor said the court is abandoning its 1968 rationale and instead wants judges to decide the legality of such arrangements on a case-by-case basis -- what judges call a "rule of reason."

"We of course do not hold that all vertical maximum price fixing is per se lawful," O'Conner said. "Instead, vertical maximum price fixing, like the majority of commercial arrangements subject to the antitrust laws, should be evaluated under the rule of reason."

This ruling overturns an existing law established in the Supreme Court opinion known as Albrecht vs. Herald Co.

Vertical price fixing pertains to arrangements between a manufacturer, distributor, supplier or retailer. Horizontal price fixing, which would involve competitors colluding to set prices, remains illegal.

The oil companies had sought the court's consent to the "rule of reason." Khan was a Illinois service station owner who contended his contract with State Oil left him too little profit margin since it set maximum prices.

Other industries that rely on manufacturer-retailer arrangements -- including newspapers, beer distributors and car dealers -- supported the oil company's case.

The case was argued before the Supreme Court on October 7.


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I doubt Lotus would want the hassle of "judges to decide the legality of such arrangements on a case-by-case basis -- what judges call a "rule of reason."
 

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I think it's fair for a dealer to charge what the market will bear. However by the same token it is also fair to spread the word that they are immoderately desirous of acquiring wealth and to discourage anyone you meet from doing business with them.

I would not pay over MSRP for a car. Indeed, I usually pay under MSRP. Isn’t that what people generally look for? I’m sure however that many will pay much more that MSRP for the Liz as it is the new hot car. I have my deposit down with MSRP in writing.

What isn't fair is if a dealer did not honor such an agreement. I think that once someone gives their word, they should keep it.
 

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Derek said:
I think it's fair for a dealer to charge what the market will bear. However by the same token it is also fair to spread the word that they are immoderately desirous of acquiring wealth and to discourage anyone you meet from doing business with them.
Maybe fair, but also slanderous. If the dealer pursues it legally, you could get in big trouble for making unqualified statements like "immoderately desirous of acquiring wealth." I suggest that if you DO make a statement about your dealer, it be something more factual, such as "Asked me for $5k over MSRP."
 

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transio said:
Maybe fair, but also slanderous. If the dealer pursues it legally, you could get in big trouble for making unqualified statements like "immoderately desirous of acquiring wealth." I suggest that if you DO make a statement about your dealer, it be something more factual, such as "Asked me for $5k over MSRP."
Maybe, but who would know. Such things are usually spread by word of mouth. This is the means by which reputations are destroyed.

Have you ever spoke ill of a business? Perhaps you’ve eaten at a restaurant with lousy service or bad food that made you sick?

Of course you could be one of those people that have your balls bound by a sheath of political correctness?

Have you ever been sued for slander? I haven't, and I don't think I personally know anyone that has.

Nonetheless, I think it would be hard to prove what I said to someone I know in my day to day life, additionally I doubt anyone I was giving a heads up to about some greedy dealer would want to mention it in court.
 

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ivan1 said:
I am not defending price gouging. But we are talking about a low volume product so it is inevitable that some dealers will want an even higher profit margin. Noone is forced to buy a car from them (and I personally never would).I hope it drives customers away from them to dealers that sell at MSRP.
The problem is the very small number of outlets to purchase at and the already very long waits. Say you have a deal marked MSRP and are #9 on the list. When order time comes the dealer decides he can get $5k over sticker and refuses to honor your MSRP. Where you gonna go ? Which of the other 4 Lotus dealers in town ? Wait a minute there aren't 4 other dealers you're stuck with this guy, unless you go out of state, and by now the wait list is 1 1/2 years there. When THAT car comes up 1 1/2 years down the road who knows. he may renig on the MSRP also.

This is why MSRP should really mean something and Lotus should see that it does, because there are very few dealer choices available. If dealers order cars for the low number guys in line and they change their mind and don't buy, then by all means use those few cars to mount with floor mats, lo-jac, and special chrome wheels nuts and sell for $10k over sticker to walk in clients, but don't screw the early arriving, long waiting Lotus fans.


Steve
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Very good point, I placed a deposit with a local dealer who wrote in MSRP, I TRULY hope they don't decide to add in any "processing" fees when I move forward with the purchase.

Does Lotus require their dealers to abide by the MSRP if quoted? I checked my PO and there is no reference to additional fees.....we shall see...

As to price gouging, yes Dealers CAN require more, but the buyer needs to decide if they should bend over.

As a buyer, I definitely would have liked to know who was gouging and who wasn't. Would have made my dealership selection much easier!

WILL NEVER PAY OVER MSRP!
 

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Just got a phone call from Broadwalk Lotus saying I can place my order today. I pulled my deposit from them back in April last year after I found out they are a dishonest dealer and NOT selling at MSRP, I don't know why they still call me. So I ask if they are selling at MSRP and he said NO so I tell him I'll pass then he tell me then I'll have to wait couple year, blah, blah, blah.

I think Broadwalk Lotus is very dishonest and have a bad attitude. When I put down my deposit with them they told me they are selling at MSRP and I am #2. After 2 days I found out they are not so I pulled my deposit right ways and went to Los Gatos. I think they are selling at $5000 markup last April, now they are probably asking $10K markup. I hate to deal with dishonest dealers and salesman, I rather wait a little longer.
 

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MSRP - Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price
Personally I would never pay over MSRP but dealers have every right to ask what they want.
I think Lotus dealers have a lot of nerve price gouging on the Elise considering most of them only sold one or two cars all last year. The increase in volume alone is huge.

FWIW, I got spot #2 at MSRP.
 

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100% agree

- with the last post.

And to people who whine about dealers not making enough.
Trust me they always make out. I view my deposit as a contract and I will go to the n'th degree in making sure the dealer honors the agreement. If an unspoken for car finds a buyer that's willing to pay overprize in the showroom, so be it. I have my contract on paper!

my 2 cent's on this ever hot matter.

Jari
 

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ups - The following is what I 100% agree with

"I think someone willing to pay over MSRP on a used car versus a Dealer marking up the cost of a new car over MSRP are two different things here.
Let's say if I were to place an order for a new car and it becomes the "IT" car of the moment, and when the time comes to pick up my new ride the dealer then wants to charge me over MSRP, I'd go to tell 'em to stick it where the sun don't shine BUT if I never had an order in for the new "IT" car and suddenly had to have it and my only option was to pick up a slightly used one at over MSRP for my instant gratification then that's my own fault.

I hope that makes an once of sense...it did when it was in my head but putting it into words was harder than I thought
"
 
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