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Discussion Starter #1
I have received a few emails with questions/comments concerning the Ferodo pads that I stock. I will share some of my insight quickly here.

Based on my experience with Pagid Blacks I find that they tend to transfer pad material in uneven fashion no matter how hard I try to bed them in according to their procedures.

And with the Lotus Sport/AP calipers that I run the Pagid Blacks put the ABS into glide mode under hard application. That happens because the friction exceeds the computers capability. (These cars do not come equipped with racing ABS.) But what people tend to do is mistake that glide for the need of more aggressive pads such as Pagid Greys and Raybestos ST-43s. Result: more glide.

Braking is all about feel and that is certainly subjective – or at least it used to be. Now some cars that I have tested in have data acquisition that monitors brake pedal pressure. Match that up to the pad in question and interesting things are discovered.

I’ll leave it like this…the fast semi-pro Porsche drivers that I converse with and race against use Pagid Oranges! They however are not made for our application but the Ferodo 2500s are. And they match up well with the Pagid Oranges. And cost less too.
 

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I have received a few emails with questions/comments concerning the Ferodo pads that I stock. I will share some of my insight quickly here.

Based on my experience with Pagid Blacks I find that they tend to transfer pad material in uneven fashion no matter how hard I try to bed them in according to their procedures.

And with the Lotus Sport/AP calipers that I run the Pagid Blacks put the ABS into glide mode under hard application. That happens because the friction exceeds the computers capability. (These cars do not come equipped with racing ABS.) But what people tend to do is mistake that glide for the need of more aggressive pads such as Pagid Greys and Raybestos ST-43s. Result: more glide.

Braking is all about feel and that is certainly subjective – or at least it used to be. Now some cars that I have tested in have data acquisition that monitors brake pedal pressure. Match that up to the pad in question and interesting things are discovered.

I’ll leave it like this…the fast semi-pro Porsche drivers that I converse with and race against use Pagid Oranges! They however are not made for our application but the Ferodo 2500s are. And they match up well with the Pagid Oranges. And cost less too.
I can definitely support dmh's experience with the Pagid Blacks being difficult to get bedded-in properly....even with the standard Lotus rotors.

I'll try a set of Ferodo pads -- Please send me a set for my Cup car. TIA
 

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Personal experience with Ferodo's on circuit use on the Elise wasn't good im my case.

I found the 2500's to be very inconsistent on the Elise. Initial bite with little retardation and then a sharp increase in friction making consistent braking a very hit-and-miss affair. Also made then very difficult to threshold brake.

The 3000's were really a step too far and would lock up (no ABS here) the wheels at pretty low pedal pressures and with too little feedback for good modulation. Almost impossible to threshold brake.

In both cases the Elise seems to be too light and puts insufficient heat into the brakes for these to work well.

A bit like using Pagid RS15's (grey) on the Elise. They are too agressive as well and not really suitable.

Best consistency so far I have had with Carbone Lorraine RC6 sintered brake pads. they eat brake discs for lunch, but always and under any circumstance brake the same. Hot, cold.. No matter. Utterly predictable and very good pedal feel. Very much un-suited for road use though. Squeeled and screeched like mad. Pure track pad.

Bye, Arno.
 

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Arno,

Maybe you need a heavier car........ like our Exige's. :)
 

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I'm a bit confused by "friction exceeds the computers capability"

:confused:

Surely the limiting factor on friction exerted by the pad in ANY case is that amount sufficient to lock the wheel .........

FWIW, my experience with Pagid Blacks has been very good - consistent performance across a range of brake temps on track, without any "grabby" tendency, reasonably kind to rotors and last well enough. Also, I didn't seem to have any rotor deposition issues - and I have had that before with different cars and pads.

The higher coefficient of friction of the Pagid Blacks was very noticeable though - especially on the street - easy to grab the brakes harder than intended until you are used to it. Track wasn't a problem, although I may have gotten used to the feel by then
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Having come from a time before ABS existed, I have had no experience with ABS on track until my Elise and now my Exige. Would you mind explaining "glide mode" a little please.
“Glide mode” is a very common occurrence when street cars are taken to the track. Most any DE participant has heard multiple stories such as “I hit the brakes but nothing happened!”

It can happen in various ways. One such way is under trail braking when a wheel is off the ground. Another is uneven track surface in the braking area. Or when too aggressive a pad is used. The end result is that the computer goes into frenzy and you end up coasting.
 

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“Glide mode” is a very common occurrence when street cars are taken to the track. Most any DE participant has heard multiple stories such as “I hit the brakes but nothing happened!”

It can happen in various ways. One such way is under trail braking when a wheel is off the ground. Another is uneven track surface in the braking area. Or when too aggressive a pad is used. The end result is that the computer goes into frenzy and you end up coasting.
That's what ppl called brake 'ice mode'? Saw a lot of discussions on the ice mode here. Can some one that reported ice mode confirm the none-OEM pads installed? I always use OEM pads and have not had any ice mode under any conditions.
 

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Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Personal experience with Ferodo's on circuit use on the Elise wasn't good im my case.

I found the 2500's to be very inconsistent on the Elise. Initial bite with little retardation and then a sharp increase in friction making consistent braking a very hit-and-miss affair. Also made then very difficult to threshold brake.

The 3000's were really a step too far and would lock up (no ABS here) the wheels at pretty low pedal pressures and with too little feedback for good modulation. Almost impossible to threshold brake.

In both cases the Elise seems to be too light and puts insufficient heat into the brakes for these to work well.

A bit like using Pagid RS15's (grey) on the Elise. They are too agressive as well and not really suitable.

Best consistency so far I have had with Carbone Lorraine RC6 sintered brake pads. they eat brake discs for lunch, but always and under any circumstance brake the same. Hot, cold.. No matter. Utterly predictable and very good pedal feel. Very much un-suited for road use though. Squeeled and screeched like mad. Pure track pad.

Bye, Arno.
Just curious: Did you know what pad was in the caliper before you made any subjective judgments? Or do you have data? ;)

"Initial bite with little retardation and then a sharp increase in friction making consistent braking a very hit-and-miss affair. Also made then very difficult to threshold brake."
What you are describing is what is known as "modulation." As the car slows down if you do not lessen the brake pedal pressure it will feel difficult to threshold brake.

I have no experience with RC6's but literature is available about them. The reason they are unsuited for the road is the bite is feirce. Carbone Lorraine also recommends a substantial brake bias adjustment toward the rear. And not too many of our cars have that. :crazyeyes
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Interesting. I guess haven't run into that. Thanks
Brake glide is not a secret. If you drove a front wheel drive car you would be well aware of what it feels like. Get a wheel off the ground and just hang on! Neither is the pad transfer issue. Even your local dealer probably knows more than enough about it. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
That's what ppl called brake 'ice mode'? Saw a lot of discussions on the ice mode here. Can some one that reported ice mode confirm the none-OEM pads installed? I always use OEM pads and have not had any ice mode under any conditions.
Wow!
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51245&highlight=%22ice+mode%22&page=3

I read the thread and as reported it is not Lotus specific -- it happens with many non-racing ABS eqipped cars. These cars are light and come with an aggressive pad. When you apply the brakes too hard "glide mode" (what racers call it) or "ice mode" (LTers term) occurs. The same was written there about bumpy braking zones: the ABS cannot keep up.

Some people pull the fuse. Others like me try to find a compatible pad because we value the ABS in certain situations such as not flat spotting tires and the associated cost. And after testing and racing at VIR, Pocono, and Sebring I feel the Ferodo 2500 pad, due to it being not all that aggressive helps our situation.
 

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I have had great results with the Pagid blacks (front only) on track. The pad wear is much more even than the OEM pads I replaced. Some noise, and lots of dust.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
I have had great results with the Pagid blacks (front only) on track. The pad wear is much more even than the OEM pads I replaced. Some noise, and lots of dust.
What do you run on the rear?
 

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I still have the OEM Lotus pads in the back ... with the Pagid blacks waiting on deck. Planning to switch them out next month, and also put in the RBF600 fluid.
 

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Without starting a p1ssing match, I do need to clarify some statements here:

Pagid Blacks uneven pad transfering?
That is absolutely the first time I have ever heard of this - in 5 years of Pagid sales. And thousands of sets, including many repeat customers.
They are a rather grippy and moderately abrasive, high friction pad that seems to suit the Lotus cars very, very well in most cases.

I would agree that I would not use the RS15 as their friction is quite high.

Most Porsche racers *do not* use Pagid Oranges.
Approximately 90% use Pagid Yellows - which are closely related to the RS14 blacks.
Indeed, every podium position in both Prototype and GT classes at the 24 hrs of Daytona were using Pagid Yellows by choice:
http://www.braketechnology.com/news_012708.html

The Oranges will pad transfer on a small braked, higher HP Porsche, ie a 78-83 911SC or 84-89 Carrera. I would not recommend these pads for those cars for hard track use.
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Pagid bed-in (easier than the explanation seems):

RACING PAD BEDDING

PLEASE NOTE:
IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT THE BEDDING IN PROCEDURES ARE BEING DONE ONLY ON A RACE TRACK.

1. GEOMETRIC ALIGNMENT OF PAD SURFACE TO BRAKE DISC BASIC BEDDING IN

3-4 stops with light to medium brake pressure from approximately 150 km/h (90 MPH) to approximately 100 km/h (65 MPH).

Distance between each brake stop is approximately 300-400 meters (300 to 400 yards).

The pads should not reach temperatures above 300-400 Centigrade (550 to 750 Fahrenheit) during bedding in.

Blocking of the air ducts might be helpful to reach appropriate temperatures quicker.



2. IMMEDIATELY AFTER BEDDING IN AT HIGH SPEED

One stop with medium to heavy brake pressure without allowing the brakes to lock from approximately 180 km/h (110 MPH) to approximately 100 km/h (65 MPH).

Recovery stops with light brake pressure 2-3 times.

Repeat the high speed stops, including recovery stops, 1-2 times.

Allow a cooling-off distance of approximately 500 m (500 yards) between high speed stops.
 

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...Pagid Blacks uneven pad transfering?
That is absolutely the first time I have ever heard of this - in 5 years of Pagid sales. And thousands of sets, including many repeat customers...
it's been reported more than once here on ET, including by me. i know how to bed pads and one set of black fronts gave me fits.

i still think it's a good pad, but they are not without their challenges.
 

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No doubt that you did. I was mainly answering the original post, FWTW.

Could you further explain the issues and/or point to a post?
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
"That is absolutely the first time I have ever heard of this - in 5 years of Pagid sales." Are you certain of that?

I have no doubt that many people are satisfied with the Pagid Black pads. I merely offered an option based on my research just as you offer Blues as an option for those who do not want Blacks.

And if you do some research you will find out that not all are satisfied. One source would be to investigate with a dealer who supports track cars. Another would be to do some independent testing with data such as pedal pressure, temperatures generated, stopping distances, and lap times. (I've done this.)

Concerning racing and Oranges, you took my words out of context and changed the intent. I was vague but I was referring to those semi-pro, club level drivers in non-racing ABS equipped cars and not today's sophisticated GT3s. (I realize that Pagid has the Porsche market pretty much locked up.)

I have no issues with Pagids overall; I just think the Blacks are not well suited (or speced) for our cars -- weight and speed. Not only do we have numerous race wins with Pagid Oranges in PCA CR we accumulated back-to-back-to-back-to back National Championships running Oranges in BMW CR.

Not many track enthusiasts have the luxury of bedding in pads to that procedure. And importantly, no one does on the street!
 
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