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Discussion Starter #4
I've read a few more things now and I don't get it.

Things we know:
1) Trulli fell of the track under saftecar (you can get penalised for that at stewards discresion). there's a great video of it on youtube taken from the stands. (interesting side note the other toyota did something similar right after).

Trulli says that as you now have a minimum speed under saftecar (indicated on the steerin wheel) coupled with a combination of light conditions causing dodgy shadows and cooling tyres he simply outbraked himself. Fair enough.

2) Hamilton overtook Trulli under saftey car whilst trulli was off road. This is completely legal in the rules - if a car can not maintain a safe speed, leaves the track or stops then following cars can overtake safley without penalty.
So this is all cool.

3) trulli gets back going again and tucks behind hamilton.
Still all fine

4) Mclaren radio hamilton to let trulli past. Now I know they don't *have* to do this but after last years fiascos I can see why they will play it ultra cool. I guess from a sporting point of view it's gracious as theres no way hamilton would have caught and passed trulli without the saftey car or sliding off the road.

Note: Hamilton confirmed this to the media almost directly after the race whilst the podium was being sorted

5) Hamilton slows down and pulls off line. Trulli indicates that he slowed down to less than 80kph/50mph which is basically stopped for an F1 car. Trulli says he believed hamilton to have a problem and approaches on the racing line and go round the next corner together.

6) Trulli says that after giving hamilton more than enough chance to retake the lead he pulls infront. Now Toyota are radioing him to let hamilton pass whilst confirming with race control what is going on.

7) race finished, trulli penalised, stewards enquiry and then the normal fia fiasco.

I don't see what could have been witheld from the stewards - the only thing that I can think of is that hamilton says he didn't deliberatly slow down (which would be weird as he already said to everybody else he was asked to by the team).

I guess he could be trying to avoid a penalty for slowing down too much under the saftey car? but given the circumstances the stewards should understand that he was returning a position back rather than being dangerous and at worst case let trulli have 3rd and hamilton 4th.

I can't believe Mclaren/Hamilton would deliberatly lie in this case not when every single damn word and sensor is recorded and can be given to the FIA?!?

But the DQ is for misleading the stewards? The FIA have got to release more info on this as it's just damaging the sport beyond repair.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
If the transcripts fail to contradict the following from statement from Mclaren team boss Whitmarsh, then it's another shocker for F1:


As we see it, what happened here is that during the closing stages of the Australian Grand Prix, under difficult conditions, there was a safety car incident whereby Jarno Trulli fell off the circuit and Lewis [Hamilton] could legitimately pass Trulli. I don't think that is in question," he explained.

"Once that had happened, of course, the team could not see it. Lewis informed the team that he had passed Trulli – and there was understandably concern within the team that he had passed Trulli under a safety car.

"At that time, we did not know that Trulli was right off the circuit and Lewis was asked to give back the place to Trulli. That was a team view, having not seen it, and we thought it was the safest thing to do.

"Once that instruction was given to Lewis, he did not agree. He said: ‘Look, the guy was off the circuit, I didn't need to do this.' A discussion was occurring and before that discussion was finished, Trulli had re-passed. If we look at the speed traces at that time, and compare it to other periods behind the safety car, then Lewis did not do anything abnormal. And I think it is also quite clear that Trulli should not have re-passed.

"As soon as that happened, we then spoke to Race Control, to explain that and ask if we could retake that place. At the time, understandably Race Control was busy and they were not able to give us an answer. We asked several times, but clearly they were very busy. So we had to then deal with it. We felt it would be resolved by the stewards after the race.

"At the stewards' meeting, we mistakenly believed that the stewards were aware, Charlie [Whiting] was there, and the FIA was there, of that radio conversation. The stewards now believe that we were not explicit enough about that radio conversation, and felt therefore that that was prejudicial to the decision that they reached. Obviously we regret that, and that was a mistake by the team, but we have got to accept the decision that has now been made."
 

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ads green:

Things we know:
1) Trulli fell of the track under saftecar (you can get penalised for that at stewards discresion). there's a great video of it on youtube taken from the stands. (interesting side note the other toyota did something similar right after).

Which video is that?
 

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come on, this should be obvious by now, if Ferrari doesn't get any points, either should Mclaren - that seems to be the sole mission of the FIA
 

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Discussion Starter #11
The problem is that if (as the FIA ruling states) the direct question was asked "was there a team order to let Trulli pass" and both driver and team answered negatively then that is misleading as it clearly wasn't the case.

If as whitmarsh says they were having a discussion about it when Trulli passed him then they could easily have said that which would have been backed up by the comments after and the radio transcript.

However getting this so badly wrong means that it casts doubt over anything that Hamilton/Mclaren said during that meeting so the stewards could quite rightly decide that Trulli's version of events are accurate and that Hamilton did let him back into 3rd.
Thus the correct decision was Trulli 3rd and Hamilton 4th.

The issue now is that the FIA have decided that Mclaren deliberately mislead the initial investigation and DQ'd Hamilton. Based on the above if accurate I could see why the FIA would be p****d at them.

However I would like to see the transcript of the initial stewards investigation to see what the questions and answers were.
 

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Unbelievable! If Hamilton wants to repeat as world champion, he better jump ship to Ferrari ASAP.
 

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The only thing that SHOULD count is how the car/driver acted on track - in this case both Hamilton and Trulli tried to do the right thing... and that's what counts.

Worst case scenario - give Trulli back 3rd by penalizing Hamilton 25 seconds - basically reversing the initial penalty.

Hamilton would end up in 8th spot according to my calculations on The Official Formula 1 Website

But don't for Christ's sake DSQ him.

Stupid bastard bureaucrats!
 

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So much for my apple and fruit salad analogy in that earlier thread. What a great race to simply get wrecked by FIA... I like hamilton, but even taking an objective look at this doesn't seem to even remotely deam a DSQ. Bah humbug!:(
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Although what happens on the track is important the stewards were (quite rightly) looking to determine if Trulli had broken a serious saftey car rule. Overtaking under yellow is bad enough but overtaking under safety car should be taken very seriously.

The problem is that if as the FIA/stewards have ruled Mclaren mislead the stewards to gain an advatage then they should be DQ'd. Its fundamentally wrong to do this and I can't believe that they did.

I don't think Mclaren would be excluded from the chamiponship just yet. the penalty they got was harsh but if accurate then very fair. Let the stewards make their own mistakes and don't try to play games with them.
 

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This is crazy. The stewards are out of control, IMO, and need to be reigned in. They are absolutely killing the spirit of racing in F1, if it hasn't already been killed. Now every driver (except Ferrari, apparently) will be totally paranoid about making a racing move. :wallbang:
 

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Here we go again with the stewards. This is ridiculous. They should have left the Kubica/Vettel incident alone as well. Was it Massa that was waving at the safety car trying to figure out what to do? It's just amazing that the drivers and the teams are alway's confused with the rules. It should be clear without any questions.
 

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Here you go.
Need to be quick - FIA and pulling videos of this from youtube.
This is a fan (user) video and FIA has no rights whatsoever concerning it. I think FIA has no rights whatsoever anyway, it would be FOM that controls, say TV broadcasts, but for home video like this they cannot control or limit its distribution.

Now, because of DMCA they can issue a takedown request *anyway*, and while not technically legal, for practical purposes they can do so without penalty even though they do not hold any rights to the video. However the videographer or true copyright holder can then have it reinstated.
 
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