If you consider the modifications Lotus has planned for the 2ZZ-GE it is difficult to accept that the end result is merely an improvent in the torque curve. The current GT-S makes 190hp/133 ft-lbs. Lotus is putting on a new intake and exhaust manifold as well as tuning the ECU for maximum performance. Here is what I think is going on. Lotus Cars Ltd has forced LCU to understate the performance gains so as not to further upset our jealous brethren across the pond. I bet when we dyno the Elise we will be pleasantly surprised.
Conspiracy at Lotus USA
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Jeez, could you please leave speculations like that to politicians ?Eyelise said:
1. It would be the first marketing campaign in sportscar history, where the manufacturer downplays performance
2. Why should we be jealous ? Quite the opposite
I'm happy for you guys, to finally get the most beautiful car there is. O.k. granted, Toyota is not a bad engine to have (I never had a problem with the K), but if you consider this engine to be an advantage, those 300 lbs overweight are not.
cheers,
Fabian
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The Euro version is 190hp. I actually think this conjecture has some merit. They did claim to have a new intake and exhaust, in addition to the new tuning. Unless they're really trying to keep this engine quiet, they should get more than 190 hp. Dynos of the celicas are showing on average a 10 hp gain with just an intake. I'm curious to see what the dynos will show for this car. And it wouldn't be the first time a car manufacturer has downplayed the hp of its engine. It has been done a couple of times for various reasons. Ford's latest cobra is quite likely underrated... they have been performing unusually well on dynos. And it's really embarrassing for a company to have to come out and admit that they inflated the numbers... another thing Ford can tell you. (Mazda can tell you this now, too...RX8) Much better to be on the safe side and let consumer word spread that the car is even better than advertised.
Plus, I can always hope it's true!
Cade
Plus, I can always hope it's true!
Cade
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Re: Re: Conspiracy at Lotus USA
Japanese domestic market cars cannot be quoted to have more than 276hp/280ps, yet cars like the Skyline GT-R will dyno at more than this.
Unfortunately, some automakers (like Mazda and its parent company Ford) have been caught overstating horsepower. If the numbers are a lie, I'd rather have them be quoted lower than they actually are.
Conspiracy to limit jealousy? What are you smoking, and can I have some?Eyelise said:
Back in the muscle car days in the U.S., some cars' horsepower numbers were quoted very conservatively to lower insurance costs (for example, the race-intended cars that were sold to the general public only because of racing homologation).echthelion said:[...]
1. It would be the first marketing campaign in sportscar history, where the manufacturer downplays performance
[...]
Japanese domestic market cars cannot be quoted to have more than 276hp/280ps, yet cars like the Skyline GT-R will dyno at more than this.
Unfortunately, some automakers (like Mazda and its parent company Ford) have been caught overstating horsepower. If the numbers are a lie, I'd rather have them be quoted lower than they actually are.
Plenty of the chevy ls-1 based vehicles from the past few years have more hp than listed just to provide a hp difference between the camaro/firebird etc and the corvette.
(Although taken as a whole, the corvette is still an amazing car. Americans, as a whole, are a bit too wrapped up in the hp issue. So where is the turbo for the elise again? )
Scot
(Although taken as a whole, the corvette is still an amazing car. Americans, as a whole, are a bit too wrapped up in the hp issue. So where is the turbo for the elise again?
)Scot
Re: Re: Conspiracy at Lotus USA
Actually American companies do this a bit. The latest was the Dodge SRT-4. It was published much lower than it actually is. 2004 they're upping the numbers a bit.echthelion said:1. It would be the first marketing campaign in sportscar history, where the manufacturer downplays performance
Honestly, I only started this thread to stimulate an exchange across the pond so to speak. I quoted the HP numbers from the Euro GT-S. I have been monitoring the GT-S sites and noted significant gains with intake, exhaust and ECU tuning. The gains were more than claimed by Lotus. BTW, Audi consistently understates the output of the 1.8T because it is close to the output of the 6 cylinder. We can dream.
I quoted the HP numbers from the Euro GT-S. I have been monitoring the GT-S sites and noted significant gains with intake, exhaust and ECU tuning. The gains were more than claimed by Lotus. BTW, Audi consistently understates the output of the 1.8T because it is close to the output of the 6 cylinder. We can dream.
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The way I look at this motor, it's a lightweight 1.8 liter N/A. To get 190hp out of it, is about the top end of a production motor. If they allow the rev's a bit higher they'd get a bit more hp, not torque. In that sense really don't see them being able to get much more then 5-10 hp out of it, if there conservative or variation from motor to motor. What we do with it after we get our hands on it is another matter...
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I thought they also had better gas in Europe? US cars need to be tuned for crappy gas, so you can't expect an engine to make as much power as it does in Europe. Especially since it needs to be tuned for the worst standard (California), not even the 93 octance that is available in much of the country. So you have to start from the 180hp that the GT-S makes in the US.
And like most people here, I'd rather see them being somewhat conservative with the numbers, it's much better than doing the Mazda thing. I doubt that it will make much more than 190hp, though.
And like most people here, I'd rather see them being somewhat conservative with the numbers, it's much better than doing the Mazda thing. I doubt that it will make much more than 190hp, though.
They chose a cheap, reliable, and easy to obtain lump. Period.
The rover K cannot be sold in america currently, but potentially it could be certified and sold here. Financially speaking it is not prudent to get it certified, plus it is getting long in the tooth and will probably be replaced at some point in the future. We already have plenty of engines available that suit the elise, the toyota only being one of the bunch. Honda makes a dandy fine engine, as does mazda (renesis), but for political and technical reasons they were not chosen. I dont know the specifics but I can make plenty of guesses...
In the end we have a tradeoff engine. The toyota engine produces an amazing amount of power given its weight and size, but its upper limits are low due to the manufacturing tolerances, compression ratio, and complexity. That being said its base format has lots of power through a large range making the elise very easy to drive. While I would rather have more power, a narrow powerband would not sell well, and it could very well increase our insurance rates from people not able to control an abrupt power change. (Ala the s2000, remember the weight difference here)
Do I wish another engine was selected? Yeah kinda. I would have loved to see a rotary, but I cant figure out where the 20gal tank would sit. The honda? Yeah again but politics play a big part. So we have the toyota engine. If lotus puts it in play through the world and not just here, we will see tons of mods available for it. If lotus does not fix the internal issues themselves, someone else WILL, and hopefully they wont be asking for 2100 dollars for a muffler (ala porsche) that only increases sound and has no hp change.
My guess? 3 or years from now we will see the elise sport 250. Lotus isnt stupid. FIrst 2 years the car sells out 9months-1yr ahead of production. Third year the sales dip a bit as people get disillusioned about driving the car all the time and start selling, new car sales slow a bit. Time to do some racing, and release a club sport edition. Roll cage everything bolted in, and some engine "enhancements" ready for ya. 220hp. Another year and they get serious with an "off road" version with 250hp.
They can keep the car going for years and years making good profits with a minimum of change (ie $$$) invested in the current platform. Then when they finally need to, release its replacement. 5 or so years from now.
Oh and have an exige somewhere in there too.
Scot
The rover K cannot be sold in america currently, but potentially it could be certified and sold here. Financially speaking it is not prudent to get it certified, plus it is getting long in the tooth and will probably be replaced at some point in the future. We already have plenty of engines available that suit the elise, the toyota only being one of the bunch. Honda makes a dandy fine engine, as does mazda (renesis), but for political and technical reasons they were not chosen. I dont know the specifics but I can make plenty of guesses...
In the end we have a tradeoff engine. The toyota engine produces an amazing amount of power given its weight and size, but its upper limits are low due to the manufacturing tolerances, compression ratio, and complexity. That being said its base format has lots of power through a large range making the elise very easy to drive. While I would rather have more power, a narrow powerband would not sell well, and it could very well increase our insurance rates from people not able to control an abrupt power change. (Ala the s2000, remember the weight difference here)
Do I wish another engine was selected? Yeah kinda. I would have loved to see a rotary, but I cant figure out where the 20gal tank would sit. The honda? Yeah again but politics play a big part. So we have the toyota engine. If lotus puts it in play through the world and not just here, we will see tons of mods available for it. If lotus does not fix the internal issues themselves, someone else WILL, and hopefully they wont be asking for 2100 dollars for a muffler (ala porsche) that only increases sound and has no hp change.
My guess? 3 or years from now we will see the elise sport 250. Lotus isnt stupid. FIrst 2 years the car sells out 9months-1yr ahead of production. Third year the sales dip a bit as people get disillusioned about driving the car all the time and start selling, new car sales slow a bit. Time to do some racing, and release a club sport edition. Roll cage everything bolted in, and some engine "enhancements" ready for ya. 220hp. Another year and they get serious with an "off road" version with 250hp.
They can keep the car going for years and years making good profits with a minimum of change (ie $$$) invested in the current platform. Then when they finally need to, release its replacement. 5 or so years from now.
Oh and have an exige somewhere in there too.
Scot
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2,148 Posts
Curious. The only people who have driven the car, rave about it. While many of those who haven't persistently complain about what's wrong with it and suggest "improvements".
As some people have suggested, you might want to give the car a try before you start planning a bunch of changes.
As some people have suggested, you might want to give the car a try before you start planning a bunch of changes.
The answer is easy. We have been brought up to believe "the man" (car company) wants to oppress us drivers by giving us substandard equipment (ala anything made by ford) and calling it a sports vehicle (ok except the gt40, god do I want one.)
Since lotus is calling the elise a sports car, and it doesnt have the jawdropping power of its more expensive and heavy cousin the corvette z06, we must be able to wrangle more hp out of it. Which we will be able to do of course.
I think, in the end, one common principle rules. If you have never been on the track before, I dont care how much hp you push though your engine. You will be slow. Probably be able to GO really fast, but when you miss your turnins and spin through the mud. remember that your turbo could have bought you quite a few days actually running on the track.
there is nothing like being out and among 500rwhp cars with your stock convertable (save slicks) LAPPING them because they dont understand track basics, but boy do they power out of the turns real well.
Scot
Since lotus is calling the elise a sports car, and it doesnt have the jawdropping power of its more expensive and heavy cousin the corvette z06, we must be able to wrangle more hp out of it. Which we will be able to do of course.
I think, in the end, one common principle rules. If you have never been on the track before, I dont care how much hp you push though your engine. You will be slow. Probably be able to GO really fast, but when you miss your turnins and spin through the mud. remember that your turbo could have bought you quite a few days actually running on the track.
there is nothing like being out and among 500rwhp cars with your stock convertable (save slicks) LAPPING them because they dont understand track basics, but boy do they power out of the turns real well.
Scot
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16 Posts
Eyelise said:Honestly, I only started this thread to stimulate an exchange across the pond so to speak.
I appreciate that. That's why I made the 300 lbs remark, which all of you choose to ignore .I know about the skyline hp understatement, but don't give me that Dodge thing. This ain't no sportscar.
Corvette: Since I'm having the alps at my doorstep, I can tell you from experience, that going into those bends, one breaks a 100 feet later than a corvette has to. You're faster in the curve, and that short straight to the next curve is not enough for a corvette to keep up. You simply outhandle them, even with my dinky 150 hp lump.
Those 190 hp, you're getting, are plenty.
Tuning: the part wich needs the most improvement, is the nut behind the steering wheel.
93 octane: The celica lump in europe is asking for 95 octane minimum iirc.
Just found a reason to be jealous: If that price guesstimate is correct .....
cheers,
Fabian
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