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Discussion Starter #22
ABS:

I don't know how it works in this situation on our cars, but it prevents using the "both feet in" (brake & clutch) technique in a spin on most cars.

Common wisdom has said that if you can lockup the wheels during a spin, you will at least spin straight ahead, vs making large arcs into solid items.

How does it work on our cars?
 

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Discussion Starter #23

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Discussion Starter #24
that definitely works, i use it on GranTurismo4 all the time. If i'm coming in too fast and/or miss the apex, straight-line braking is more efficient than trail-braking(turning whilst braking).

Good post
thanks, but what kind of car is a GT4, pray tell? :D
 

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Sorry, but I don't get it. If red is the braking zone, why would you want to be braking there? You're already through the turn.
You have the car's direction backward.

The "car" is at the beginning of the braking/turn, going from left to right in the diagram...
 

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Great write up. :clap: When I teach my friends how to drive in a bit more spirited manner, I teach them to late apex for this very reason. If your natural line is the safest, then you can have fun on a twisty road, and have a large margin of error. Late apexing saves you generally when driving around blind corners, decreasing radius corners, and keeps your mid corner speed a lot lower, since you never really fully commit to a corner.

Whether on the track, on the street, or driving up in the canyons, it's better to be on the brakes and depart the road in a controlled manner than try to save it. This method works wonders, as if you don't manage to slow the car down by using all of the traction for braking, at least you are going to depart the road under control.

Per spinning, locking up the brakes puts your direction of travel constant from where you locked the brakes. I did that in an old VW, and hitting the brakes at the right time put my velocity vector straight down the road, so I avoided any body work. This trick works reasonably well in a car equipped with ABS.
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Brendan -

Yup, there is a lot of good info in this thread, lots of people contributing, you too.

I've seen T-shirts that say: "Friends don't let friends early apex"

My one experience w/ a spin in an ABS-equipped car, the ABS wouldn't let the wheels lock up and the car gave me a lovely tour of the entire roadway, all 3 lanes, and the embankment.

If the the theory is that the brakes must be locked for this technique to work and ABS (in my one experience) didn't allow that, I can't see "both feet in" working.

Any ideas......anyone?
 

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Brendan -

Yup, there is a lot of good info in this thread, lots of people contributing, you too.

I've seen T-shirts that say: "Friends don't let friends early apex"

My one experience w/ a spin in an ABS-equipped car, the ABS wouldn't let the wheels lock up and the car gave me a lovely tour of the entire roadway, all 3 lanes, and the embankment.

If the the theory is that the brakes must be locked for this technique to work and ABS (in my one experience) didn't allow that, I can't see "both feet in" working.

Any ideas......anyone?
I spun an E34 525i with ABS, and I did stay in one lane. Food for thought there though is that 1. I wasn't going more than 50mph 2. That is was raining 3. That's still a fairly basic ABS system when compared with modern cars, being IIRC two channel not four channel. Thinking further, I can see a four channel ABS having issues with a spin, since it is going to try to keep the car going straight, but in that situation things are probably happening too fast and too violently for it to deal with.

At a driving clinic, I saw a friend of mine spin an E60 530 with the DSC on. Why? Over cooked it into a corner with a sharp steering input (why???), and the tail kicked out. While the tail was out and the DSC was trying to save it, he countersteered, which when you combine the steering input, and DSC braking input, the car violently swung the other direction. He still hasn't heard the end of it, nor has he driven my E39 540. :D

Next time I'm in an open enough spot I might spin my E39 to see what the brakes do...:shift:
 

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The diagram is bogus. In the diagram, the car is in trouble, so it makes a hard left, and then brakes. According to the diagram, there is no need to brake, because the car already made the turn. So why not accelerate in the red zone.? If the car is really in trouble, it cant make that left in the first place.
 

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The earlier comment about letting the suspension settle is spot on, you want to get off the brakes in time for the suspension to settle before the agressive turn. Fortunately on the Lotus the settling period is very brief.
 

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The diagram is bogus. In the diagram, the car is in trouble, so it makes a hard left, and then brakes. According to the diagram, there is no need to brake, because the car already made the turn. So why not accelerate in the red zone.? If the car is really in trouble, it cant make that left in the first place.
Tim is amazing. He actually anticipated your post years ago and answered it here:

You have the car's direction backward.

The "car" is at the beginning of the braking/turn, going from left to right in the diagram...
 

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It has always baffled me how many people will respond to a relatively short thread without reading anything but the very first post. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Reading is becoming a lost art and this doesn't bode well for society.

Perhaps I should do everything in cartoon form.

Thanks.
 

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Thanks for posting this, by the way. This has saved my butt a few times, and a refresher to keep it engrained in my head is always a good thing. Also, "Slow in. Fast out" is the rule on the street.

My reminder to not get in a situation where I need to use the Moss line is a patch I found a few years ago. I've wedged it right by my tachometer, in plain sight when I'm driving.
 

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"Slow in. Fast out" is the rule on the street.
SIFO is the rule everywhere. Do I have to tell the Jackie Stewart stories agian?

Moss himself said, "It is better to go into a corner slow and come out fast than it is to go into a corner fast and come out dead."
 

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Discussion Starter #39
Thanks for posting this, by the way. This has saved my butt a few times, and a refresher to keep it engrained in my head is always a good thing. Also, "Slow in. Fast out" is the rule on the street.

My reminder to not get in a situation where I need to use the Moss line is a patch I found a few years ago. I've wedged it right by my tachometer, in plain sight when I'm driving.
That is very funny.

SIFO is the rule everywhere. Do I have to tell the Jackie Stewart stories agian?

Moss himself said, "It is better to go into a corner slow and come out fast than it is to go into a corner fast and come out dead."
Could you pls point me to the J Stewart stories?


Moss once used a cow in a field as a braking point.

Alas, he learned the hard way that cows move about....
 
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