3 words for dealer "go f*ck yourself" which can possibly be preceded by "you're full of sh!t" if you so desire.majorbonr said:
No i didn't pay for PDI and no i would not. I'm sure Lotus would love to hear about that one...
did you pay for your PDI?
i just got off the phone with my dealer and he told me i have a $300 charge for Pre-Delivery Inspection(PDI), anyone else get this charge? thanks.
scott
scott
1 - 20 of 46 Posts
No i didn't pay for PDI and no i would not. I'm sure Lotus would love to hear about that one...
Re: Re: did you pay for your PDI?
There's not much Lotus can do about this in America.offroadr35 said:3 words for dealer "go f*ck yourself" which can possibly be preceded by "you're full of sh!t" if you so desire.
No i didn't pay for PDI and no i would not. I'm sure Lotus would love to hear about that one...
PDI isn't a chargeable thing, you're the first I've heard where the dealer tried to charge for it.
Chris
Chris
Many dealers charge for "processing" (filling out the forms).
Some charge for "dealer prep" (washing the car).
Apparently, your dealer is charging for "PDI".
It's not a charge that Lotus has specified. But as was mentioned above, Lotus - by law - has absolutely no control of how the dealers do business beyond specifying the "Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price". And the key word in MSRP is Suggested.
Some dealers are charging "market value" above MSRP.
Some dealers are simply charging MSRP and charging some miscellaneous charge.
Some Dealers are charging MSRP.
Some charge for "dealer prep" (washing the car).
Apparently, your dealer is charging for "PDI".
It's not a charge that Lotus has specified. But as was mentioned above, Lotus - by law - has absolutely no control of how the dealers do business beyond specifying the "Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price". And the key word in MSRP is Suggested.
Some dealers are charging "market value" above MSRP.
Some dealers are simply charging MSRP and charging some miscellaneous charge.
Some Dealers are charging MSRP.
Re: Re: did you pay for your PDI?
In any case, the dealer would like to hear nothing more than "go f' yourself". The cheers you hear on the other end of the phone will be the sound of +$5000 in their pockets. If they don't hang up on you first, you might hear a full-throated "Cha-CHing!" from the sales manager as they gleefully cross your name off the list, grinning a big ol' capitalist grin.
Lotus would tell you to "call your dealer." Seriously, where do you get the impression Lotus UK or Lotus USA actually cares what the dealership charges for cars they receive? I see no evidence of that AT ALL.offroadr35 said:3 words for dealer "go f*ck yourself" which can possibly be preceded by "you're full of sh!t" if you so desire.
No i didn't pay for PDI and no i would not. I'm sure Lotus would love to hear about that one...
In any case, the dealer would like to hear nothing more than "go f' yourself". The cheers you hear on the other end of the phone will be the sound of +$5000 in their pockets. If they don't hang up on you first, you might hear a full-throated "Cha-CHing!" from the sales manager as they gleefully cross your name off the list, grinning a big ol' capitalist grin.
Who is your dealer so everyone else may be warned/prepared to battle!
As for what is 'chargable' and what is not, there is No Such Rule about anything.
The Dealership can write in a "$1024 Save FireFly fee" and it would be your choice whether to pay it or walk away from the deal.
Nissan in San Diego just writes "+$500 Dealer Profit" on the sticker for hot cars. I kid you not.
+$300 PDI stands for "Because We Can"
The state govt, Lotus UK, and Lotus USA will nod in agreement.
The Dealership can write in a "$1024 Save FireFly fee" and it would be your choice whether to pay it or walk away from the deal.
Nissan in San Diego just writes "+$500 Dealer Profit" on the sticker for hot cars. I kid you not.
+$300 PDI stands for "Because We Can"
The state govt, Lotus UK, and Lotus USA will nod in agreement.
.
Time for a class action, using Lotus as the hub of conspiracy. It is about time to teach the auto industry a lesson and use Lotus as a case study.
Time for a class action, using Lotus as the hub of conspiracy. It is about time to teach the auto industry a lesson and use Lotus as a case study.
Ground Loop said:As for what is 'chargable' and what is not, there is No Such Rule about anything.
The Dealership can write in a "$1024 Save FireFly fee" and it would be your choice whether to pay it or walk away from the deal.
Nissan in San Diego just writes "+$500 Dealer Profit" on the sticker for hot cars. I kid you not.
+$300 PDI stands for "Because We Can"
The state govt, Lotus UK, and Lotus USA will nod in agreement.
Re: .
It is entirely up to the dealership to set the sales price, and it's up to the buyers to protest by Not Buying.
While it would be great to see Lotus "punish" naughty dealerships that treat customers poorly, they will have to do it through things they can do legally, like smaller allocations in the future, or withholding marketing dollars. Remember, they're trying hard to get MORE dealerships, not piss off the ones that they currently have. I just wish they would do a better job in selecting them, especially here on the left coast.
The "S" in MSRP stands for Suggested. Furthermore, NO manfucturer can control the sale price. The best they can do to skirt the issue in the US is "MAP", where they withhold coadvertising dollars if the dealer advertises too low a price. Anything more can be construed as illegal price-fixing.agent.5 said:Time for a class action, using Lotus as the hub of conspiracy. It is about time to teach the auto industry a lesson and use Lotus as a case study.
It is entirely up to the dealership to set the sales price, and it's up to the buyers to protest by Not Buying.
While it would be great to see Lotus "punish" naughty dealerships that treat customers poorly, they will have to do it through things they can do legally, like smaller allocations in the future, or withholding marketing dollars. Remember, they're trying hard to get MORE dealerships, not piss off the ones that they currently have. I just wish they would do a better job in selecting them, especially here on the left coast.
You may not like the laws when they work against you, but it's not something that LCU can do anything about, other than future agreements and contractual things. But not in terms of pricing structures.
I was told by someone at Lotus that they were surprised to learn how powerless they were in regards to US law and how they could not tell a dealer what to charge for anything. They can only suggest.
This is one of the cases where a law (or set of laws) exists to help us, but there is a downside.
I was told by someone at Lotus that they were surprised to learn how powerless they were in regards to US law and how they could not tell a dealer what to charge for anything. They can only suggest.
This is one of the cases where a law (or set of laws) exists to help us, but there is a downside.
Re: Re: .
Exactly.Ground Loop said:The "S" in MSRP stands for Suggested. Furthermore, NO manfucturer can control the sale price. The best they can do to skirt the issue in the US is "MAP", where they withhold coadvertising dollars if the dealer advertises too low a price. Anything more can be construed as illegal price-fixing.
It is entirely up to the dealership to set the sales price, and it's up to the buyers to protest by Not Buying.
While it would be great to see Lotus "punish" naughty dealerships that treat customers poorly, they will have to do it through things they can do legally, like smaller allocations in the future, or withholding marketing dollars. Remember, they're trying hard to get MORE dealerships, not piss off the ones that they currently have. I just wish they would do a better job in selecting them, especially here on the left coast.
I don't need to like or dislike the law, I just need to find a jury of 12 to decide that the dealers and Lotus are the bad guys and that a judgement of $100M punitive damages will serve as a warning to all the bad guys out there, including but not limited to the bad guys from Britain, Japan, and United States.
Re: Re: Re: did you pay for your PDI?
Lotus UK and Lotus USA - by Federal law - cannot tell the dealers what to charge for anything beyond suggesting the MSRP. Period.
It's the same for any car manufacturer. To do otherwise would violate Federal laws concerning monopolies. Mercedes recently got nailed for this one for price fixing. Lotus can only screen who they will allow to be dealers. Once they become dealers, Lotus has no control over them unless the dealers do something illegal - then all they can do is cancel the franchise. Even if the dealer is ripping off the buyers, Lotus is helpless to do anything besides reducing their allocation (and that doesn't really help you now does it?). They can't even cancel the franchise (without cause) without risking action from the Feds, or at least the dealers lawyers.
In the US, dealers are independent businesses that purchase products from the importer/distributer. The dealers then sell the products (Elises in this case) to the consumer for what ever price they want to charge. If the manufacturer/importer/distributer specifies the price or otherwise controls the price; it's price fixing and the Feds can get involved.
Lotus UK and Lotus USA doesn't want the dealers to rip people off but there isn't anything they can legally do about it.
Once again, all together now:Ground Loop said:Seriously, where do you get the impression Lotus UK or Lotus USA actually cares what the dealership charges for cars they receive? I see no evidence of that AT ALL.
Lotus UK and Lotus USA - by Federal law - cannot tell the dealers what to charge for anything beyond suggesting the MSRP. Period.
It's the same for any car manufacturer. To do otherwise would violate Federal laws concerning monopolies. Mercedes recently got nailed for this one for price fixing. Lotus can only screen who they will allow to be dealers. Once they become dealers, Lotus has no control over them unless the dealers do something illegal - then all they can do is cancel the franchise. Even if the dealer is ripping off the buyers, Lotus is helpless to do anything besides reducing their allocation (and that doesn't really help you now does it?). They can't even cancel the franchise (without cause) without risking action from the Feds, or at least the dealers lawyers.
In the US, dealers are independent businesses that purchase products from the importer/distributer. The dealers then sell the products (Elises in this case) to the consumer for what ever price they want to charge. If the manufacturer/importer/distributer specifies the price or otherwise controls the price; it's price fixing and the Feds can get involved.
Lotus UK and Lotus USA doesn't want the dealers to rip people off but there isn't anything they can legally do about it.
i have no problem with dealers charging market price for an unclaimed car. I just paid market price for one. However, it is complete bullshit for them to do it disguised as a bs fee for a car that you have a contract for. If you want me to pay $XXXX over that's fine, but don't bullshit me about it.
Anyone wonder why it took a lot of people eight years to convince Lotus to risk it all and bring the Elise to the US?:wallbang: :wallbang: :shrug:agent.5 said:I don't need to like or dislike the law, I just need to find a jury of 12 to decide that the dealers and Lotus are the bad guys and that a judgment of $100M punitive damages will serve as a warning to all the bad guys out there, including but not limited to the bad guys from Britain, Japan, and United States.
Re: Re: Re: Re: did you pay for your PDI?
What's humorous about this whole ordeal is that "price fixing" is usually the reverse case -- the manufacturer is upset that the advertised prices are too low, pressuring them downward. Manufacturers usually want to Suggest a higher-than-market price, in the hopes it keeps the image high.
Check out what Escort does with their radar detectors -- it's the most agressive "not quite price fixing" I've ever seen. They even copyright their specs on the detectors, and the very image of them, so that you can't even publish an "unauthorized" advertisement with any content. They persue eBay listings with a legal fury unmatched by even SCO. All to keep the prices UP.
So it's a weird pickle all around, and customers are left with the short end of the shaft.
Oh I understand perfectly.. my point was that Lotus, in addition to being powerless, also does not appear to care at all. The tone of their memos are that they want dealers to maximize profitability -- widely regarded as a good thing. Lotus also seems to reward errant behavior by giving "Extra cars", "Second Demos" and so on. They would not do this if they objected to the large markups. These (bonus cars) are things they control, and they chose to allocate them to dealers with shady business. That is their choice.TimMullen said:Once again, all together now:
Lotus UK and Lotus USA - by Federal law - cannot tell the dealers what to charge for anything beyond suggesting the MSRP. Period.
What's humorous about this whole ordeal is that "price fixing" is usually the reverse case -- the manufacturer is upset that the advertised prices are too low, pressuring them downward. Manufacturers usually want to Suggest a higher-than-market price, in the hopes it keeps the image high.
Check out what Escort does with their radar detectors -- it's the most agressive "not quite price fixing" I've ever seen. They even copyright their specs on the detectors, and the very image of them, so that you can't even publish an "unauthorized" advertisement with any content. They persue eBay listings with a legal fury unmatched by even SCO. All to keep the prices UP.
So it's a weird pickle all around, and customers are left with the short end of the shaft.
TimMullen said:Anyone wonder why it took a lot of people eight years to convince Lotus to risk it all and bring the Elise to the US?:wallbang: :wallbang: :shrug:
Wake up and smell the coffee. The criminals are the dealers, owners of the dealers, and their business/crime partner -- Lotus.
Re: Re: .
My understanding is that there is a big legal difference between horizontal (between competing companies) and vertical (within a supply chain) agreements to set prices. One is absolutely illegal and the other has defined situations where it is permitted...though I don't know any more than that.
How about Saturn and Scion dealers? They absolutely do require their dealers to sell at MSRP (neither above nor below).Ground Loop said:The "S" in MSRP stands for Suggested. Furthermore, NO manfucturer can control the sale price. The best they can do to skirt the issue in the US is "MAP", where they withhold coadvertising dollars if the dealer advertises too low a price. Anything more can be construed as illegal price-fixing.
My understanding is that there is a big legal difference between horizontal (between competing companies) and vertical (within a supply chain) agreements to set prices. One is absolutely illegal and the other has defined situations where it is permitted...though I don't know any more than that.
Lotus would have neverTimMullen said:Anyone wonder why it took a lot of people eight years to convince Lotus to risk it all and bring the Elise to the US?:wallbang: :wallbang: :shrug:
been able to afford the costs of making an engine from scratch that met U.S. regulations without the price of the Elise going through the roof here. Luckily for us, Lotus engineers had helped Toyota to overcome many problems they were having years back and those Toyota 'mid-management' people, who now are 'high-management' people, helped us get an approval from their parent company for the engine and transmission to be supplied to us. It had already 'easily' passed all the stringent U.S. regulations which avoided Lotus having to go thru
the grueling 120,000 mile continuous
test without breakdown procedure that the U.S. requires for all engines
vying for acceptance here. I've heard
estimates of upwards of $10 million dollars to get a new engine design from scratch to acceptance in the U.S..
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