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Discussion Starter #1
I need some more advice regarding my ECU. Here is the whole story abbreviated as much as I could:

I took the car to Monkeywrench racing just prior to winter. They did some work including adding a Walboro hi volume fuel pump and sending the ECU to Charlie for recalibration prior to tuning it.

When I went to pick up the car prior to winter, I took it for a test drive prior to trailering it home and it died on me. I had to be picked up and then trailered it back to the shop where a blown fuse for the fuel pump was discovered. It then started and we put it on the trailer and I took it home.

The next day, roads were clear and they had not salted the roads yet that season, so I drove it to work to show everyone and then took it to fill the gas tank. I then parked it, pulled the battery, and covered it for the winter as snow was expected again.(I live in Michigan).

I decided to get Mahle pistons and took it back to Monkeywrench for the install. I charged the battery prior to install and went to start the car to put it on a trailer to take to Monkeywrench. It cranked many times but would not start. I pushed it on the trailer, wondering if the battery wasn't charged good enough or if it was the fuel pump fuse again.

Monkeywrench said they would check it out. Later I checked with them and they initially thought it was the battery as well. They did the engine work and then later reported to me that the computer wasn't reading back correctly and giving some odd codes. They later said it wouldn't start for them and mentioned that the ECU might be "fried". I forwarded them the information from Charlie's ECU GOOP thread and they replied by stating that they inspected and cleaned the ECU originally but they would check it. Later, they responded with the following:

:shrug:(From Monkeywrench email) It is now running though still intermittently acts strangely. I'm going to reinspect the ECU connector to see if there is an obvious bad connection in there somewhere. I have bypassed the inertia switch and immobilizer with the fuel pump wiring because there was a complete discontinuity there and it is better to run larger gauge wire directly to a high performance fuel pump anyway.


I am going to be picking it up in a couple days but
They are now stating "It is behaving but may not be 100%"

ANY IDEAS???? I am concerned as I do not want problems and I need to be able to drive it out to Las Vegas in 2 months for my wedding and so that Charlie can tune it. This really worries me as I don't know how to interpret "It's behaving but may not be 100%"????? To me that sounds like, it started and ran but it may continue to act up and could even die on you on the way home because we don't have a clue as to what is going on.

If they can't figure out the problem, what can I do? I am going to end up with a vehicle that has problems and basically if they don't figure it out, it may be my tuff luck. I am pretty irritated as they are the only ones that touched the ECU etc (except for Charlie placing a base supercharged tune).

I can't blame them if they legitimately can not figure it out, but it seems to me that they should make it right since I spent thousands of dollars having all the work I had done and part of that included the money for the reprogram of the ECU/ install and hours of dyno tuning.

Any thoughts on what might be wrong or how I should proceed? I just want to make sure my car runs and I can drive it out to Vegas and get it running properly. :crazyeyes
 

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how do they know its the ecu thats not working, did you check the things i suggested in the other thread?

i mean given they added a turbo, a piggyback ecu and a bunch of other stuff, why is the ecu considered the culprit ? , is it just the usual its the black magic box that we don't know anything about so it must be at fault type of thing ? ie the my brakes don't work whats wrong with the ecu ?
 

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So MWR did work on your car, now inoperative, and they cannot figure out the problem?

Is it typical of a shop like this to do such work without assurances of quality? Am I missing something?
 

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Have yet to see someone with a turbo post that they are happy with how their car runs. Five times or so now Ive heard nothing but unbelievable horror stories. Sorry, I know that doesnt help. My supercharger install should be done soon and then you can laugh at me when it doesnt work either.
 

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come see the ronin if you want to see a properly tuned and running turbo setup, at 21PSI 459RWHP and full street driveability.
should be 4 or 5 of them running around/

they can be done properly, just needs to be done properly!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
You know, I honestly can't tell you why they feel it's the ECU. All I know is what they have told me about getting wierd readings and feedback from it. I have to say that when I picked it up last time and took it for a 3 minute drive and got stranded a mile away from the shop, I was less than impressed. Especially since I just spent over $4000.00. They did stay late and found a blown fuel pump fuse and fixed that.

The car started and I put it on the trailer. At that time, they stated it was just the fuel pump fuse. OK, fine.......but it certainly made me wonder about issues with that in the future as they just put in a larger fuse. I trailer it home and literally drive it one time, stored it for a couple months and when it was time to place it on the trailer again, it won't start? WTF???

Obviously something is going on. What, I don't know and it sure seems like they don't know either and I am the one that is going to end up with issues. They did not mention anything last time about the ECU but it didn't start prior to taking it to them this time. Because it didn't start, I do not think the turbo upgrade or piston install has anything to do with it.

Obviously something happened from before, but what....I don't know and apparently they don't either. Could the larger fuse that they placed in the fuel pump cause a problem? I wouldn't think so, but I have no idea. I do know that the last time they did the fuel pump, ECU, and a clutch and limited slip.

They also did do something with the Greedy Emanage system as they apparently were going to have it control less functions as the computer was being reprogrammed. In addition they removed a water injection unit that was reportedly non functional and rewired an air fuel gauge and boost gauge. I would think that the problem would most likely be with one of those things or the ECU.

I honestly don't know what to do if I have problems. Is there anyone that I could take it to that would know what they are doing with it? They make it sound as if it is now running better but why??....Who knows if they don't know what is wrong in the first place.

Charlie, all I know is that they said that they were getting weird readings from the ECU.
I forwarded on all of the information that you sent me and I posted Matt's responses on this thread. At this point in time he just said "It's behaving but may not be 100%". Maybe he will find out more but at this time, that does not inspire a lot of confidence. He said he would see how it fired up tomorrow. It sounds like he is trying to figure it out but really doesn't know.

Charlie, I just hope that it runs ok and I can get it out to Vegas. It would be nice to have someone tune the car that I have confidence in. If by some chance it is something with the Greedy emanage wiring, fuel pump, etc., is there someone that could evaluate it out there in Vegas? Does anyone have a suggestion for someone close to Michigan?
Thanks
 

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jesus, i can never believe that number...459 RWHP from a 1.8L...ridiculous :)
 

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Yeah i thought so ;) i get a lot of these sorts of problems, wierd feelings are set aside for other things, can they define 'weird readings', computers work on the principle of garbage in, garbage out so if the readings are wierd its probably not getting the right data in.

The ecu is a pretty simple device really, it usually works or it doesn't, if its booting up talking to the CAN bus ( cluster works) talks to an OBD II scan tool, then its probably working ok.

The car ought to idle correctly without the emanage, so thats always a test to be done.

Problems arise in the connectors, broken pins, bad wiring, loose connections, etc and lots of other things,

Since its a 2006 ECU it has an internal checksum that if the calibration gets corrupted somehow it'll throw an OBD II error code and refuse to start, if the error code isn't being thrown, its not that. I have never ever seen or heard of that happenning, the chances of the cal being corrupted and still have a meaningful OS on the ECU to even get to throwing the code is so slight i'd play the lottery that day..

Read up on all the stories of piggybacks and the lotus, you'll see you're not alone, thats why we made this

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Discussion Starter #9
Charlie, I could car less if I have a piggy back or not. Unless there is a benefit, I would rather not. Monkeywrench did away with part of the function of the Greedy Emanage after you programmed my computer but since it was only a base supercharged car program, I guess they tried to "tune" with the emanage to make it work for the turbo. If we could program the computer to take care of everything and get rid of the piggy back, that would be fine with me. I just want my car to run right and I haven't had any real luck as of yet.

The car as you know was a HASS turbo kit and it came with the Greedy Emanage and water injection. Now, the water injection has been removed and they rewired some things on the Emanage. If we could eliminate all that and get it running right without it, I would be more than happy. Charlie, you could have the emanage system in that case (if you wanted it).

Charlie, I know you had offered to tune my car and if I need to compensate you, I am prepared to do that. I know that when you offered, you mentioned tuning it but now we may be looking at more work to get it right. If the emanage needs to be removed and other things, I will pay. I just need to get it running right.

I just have so much into this car now and it is so frustrating not having it run right. Monkeywrench just told me initially that they would have you do a computer and everything would be right with it. Well, you can see where that has got me. All I can do is hope for the best at this point. I guess the car is back on the dyno today so I guess I will see. It apparently must be running at least. What do you think Charlie? Anybody else have any suggestions?
 

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Anybody else have any suggestions?
The EFI solution works just fine and dandy for both turbo charged and supercharged cars-- many Lotus cars are running it. Kris at DRS (Welcome to DRS) can help you with that and there are several on the forum that run it that would probably be happy to visit with you about it (myself included)... It's the preferred solution if you want your own tunable solution, IMO. If that's not your thing, then fly CX up there and just have him dial the thing in... 'er maybe you can get the car to VF and have them tune it, as I think they have CX's software (not sure about the latter point)...

The real question is just how hacked up your wiring harness is at this point. Hopefully the install was sano and there's no question as to any wiring problems...

Good luck,

Phil

Edit: NM on the VF idea- I was thinking you're east coast, but you're not. They're probably too far away to make sense... sorry about that...
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I just got off the phone with Monkeywrench and they have done just about everything they can but the car is just not right. He tells me that it is right mechanically. (There is good compression, timing is fine and it is running smooth "mechanically it is great and ready for a tune) but at 7.5 psi boost with an upgraded GT2871RS turbo and 9.5:1 compression ratio, it is only at 195hp to the wheels currently.

I asked specifically what was going on and this is what I know:
1. He bypassed the fuel pump relay and wired the fuel pump (upgraded pump they installed) directly. He informed me that there was something going on with the relay between the fuel pump and that is why he rewired it.

I asked about the previous blown fuse and he informed me that the piggyback emanage and the fan for the intercooler also ran off that circuit, so that is probably why it blew a fuse last time.

2. The ECU was previously throwing a lot of error codes and "wasn't reading out". He tells me that now that has improved and it is reading out ok.

3. He tells me "The car just feels different" and mentioned that he is not sure if the reaction of the throttle is right or even if he is getting full throttle. "Maybe the VVT or throttle is off"

In the end: They don't feel there is anything else that can be done with it. So far I spent $1262 on the ECU reflash and their dyno tuning on the car from the first time. Now they are looking at more dyno tuning time, another $300 for what?? A car that they now recommend that I trailer to Las Vegas to have Charlie tune. They do not know what to do with it anymore and tell me that 2006's are difficult but mechanically "It's all ready to be tuned" They are going to try a test pipe just to see if the converter could potentially be plugged but they do not think so. I have to wait to see if I can drive it home or if I have to trailer it.
 

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Dude that sucks. :(

I'd probably fly Cx in if I were you.

Best of luck.
 

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I wouldn't throw a standalone at it yet, since you might end up spending the $3000+ dollars for a piece of hardware that doesn't quite replicate whats already in there, and then you might still have the same issues anyway and if you're not looking to tweak it more there's not much point really, anything else that could could be added would be a lot cheaper just to have an add on for. I don't think thats the right way to go about things.

Best to spend some $ finding out whats wrong, the piggyback i don't think will ever be a good solution, but it ought to at least be able to get to the point where it can run things properly at least for testing.


the only worry for me is that i don't wrench on the cars, so if it arrives in vegas with hardware issues, someones going to have to fix it first, if i can't fix it with a laptop, i don't want to do it, though i have plenty of times , but i'm a very expensive mechanic ! .

do i believe that its only making 195RWHP due to the tuning being off, its plausible, but you're making less power than the SC tune thats in the ECU!
 

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This just can't be that hard to fix. Just about everything is pretty easy to trace. There are only so many sensors that will significantly impact the car's running... I would think that MWR is going to be as good at the mechanical side of the equation as anyone... the ECU- perhaps not?????

I have not much of a clue about the piggy back, and I agree with Charlie about never being quite "right" with the piggy back. I had one back in the day when the FI kits first came out (was Xede from tri-point) and it was never really "right"... Charlie's tune got it "right" at first and then when I went to the standalone, it stayed "right"... So is the problem your piggy back fighting the ECU, a bad tune etc? Or is the problem something silly like a bad MAF or bad crank sensor. Perhaps the piggy back is more sensative to something like the crank sensor and is causing sync problems? I've seen this before-- especially with the crank sensor.... These problems are usually something pretty simple and end up with a "oh duh" when the problem is found....

Good luck,

Phil

Can you just bypass the piggyback and run the car on the stock ECU under low load to atleast check the wiring and mechanics?
 

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If you are handy with a multi-meter, at the very least, then you should dive into it and make sure the installation is sound. Otherwise, I think it will cost you more in the long run to further band-aid this set up. Paying a shop for this type of diagnosis isn't cheap. Go with Charlie or get an EFI.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Ok, here is where I am.

Matt hooked up his AEM stand alone to my car and with a very rough tune, it made more power than it did before with the lower compression and same boost level (previously at 236rwhp at 7.5-8psi). This is the same unit that he uses in his 200mph Celica. Anyway, he really wants to get my car working right and they are going to make me a cost deal and basically do the install for free since I had so much work done there and so many issues getting my car running properly.

I am hopeful that this will work and I think Matt legitimately wants to make things right. My only concern is that my car is a 2006 and has the drive by wire throttle.

I don't know how linear the drive by wire is and if they do any funny things with the throttle. He feels that this will work great based on preliminary testing. The ECU will control the throttle and dash only. Any input here? Do you think this will work alright or will I have issues? He plans on controlling all other engine functions with the stand alone.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I know that there have been a lot of bad things about Hass, but the mechanical components of my system are not an issue. I guess there were some issues with the manifold breaking but I had a different manifold made. The tuning system was crap as the Greedy emanage did not work well with the Lotus system. However, overall, I think the turbo system is a nice setup. Matt at Monkeywrench redid the hose connectors and the intercooler is a nice size. Even with the poor tune it made within 5 horsepower of the FF275 kit but the cam timing was just off as it didn't pull the high rpm power. It did however make more torque.

Once I get it tuned, I think it is going to make excellent power, far more than all but the most extreme supercharger systems, it is just getting the tune down that is going to be the problem. I fully expect to hit 350+rwhp and more likely around 380rwhp with a really good tune plus put out a lot more torque than a supercharged car making the same horsepower. It has just been very difficult figuring out how to tune a turbo car. The fault really is not with it being a Hass at this point in time.
 
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