[MammerJammer]

I'm following a thread over on PureSportsCar.com and just wanted to see if you guys had anything to say about it over here... this forum seems a little more active. I don't know whether to get excited yet or not, but it sounds really promising.

http://www.puresportscar.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=968

The person posting this begins discussing the kits on page three, but this is the excerpt I found most interesting.

The prototype in development now is a heavily modified 2ZZ-GE engine with a single turbo. The only modifications I could nail them down on were lower compression pistons, cylinder head porting, and some proprietary metal surface finishing processes to improve flow. All they would tell me is that it will be a strong, reliable product. The engineering team working on the project is extremely conscientious about the car's handling characteristics. Extreme attention has been paid to this issue in order to ensure customers get the same Lotus Elise experience, except with a lot more power. They were really intent on using the 2ZZ-GE instead of a powerplant from another manufacturer. I like the idea, myself. I don't want my Elise butchered, or turned into some kind of mutt. Also, it maintains the weight balance as Lotus intended it, not just however it ends up after Engine "X" is swapped in. This offering will be for the hardcore enthusiast that likes the look of an M-12 (and just about everything else, for that matter) in his rear-view... They hope to target customers looking for a direct-swap kit, with full, turn-key installation service. They are targeting output approaching 400 flywheel HP.

They also tell me that they're developing a full bolt-on turbo kit for the stock 2ZZ-GE in tandem with their direct swap product. This is what most people are looking for, I'm sure. Output will be targeted for around 300 flywheel HP, I believe. I think they're very close to a product with this one, but I couldn't nail anybody down for certain on ETA. I asked about pre-orders, and got a dirty look. lol Pricing hasn't been worked out yet, he explained. To me, I think you can expect the price to be very reasonable, considering the additional performance, while maintaining the car's overall balance and handling abilities.

Tuning really seems to be the word that came up often. There was a lot of emphasis placed on making the power, but keeping the engine responsive and crisp, and tuning the entire RPM range so there wouldn't be any flat spots. When I asked about driveability, I was told to expect the car to behave like stock, only with a wicked exhaust note, and a much bigger appetite for tires. I wanted to know more, but I could tell that I was drooling all over him, so I didn't push.

I know it's going to be a chunk of change, but for double the output, it's going to be worth it! Does anyone have any good info on cost for comparable modifications like these say in the Celica or Hondas?

I'm hoping for some feedback on this from some of you guys.

 

[johnboy]

If they can hold it together and sort the compression then they have a shot at that sort of lower end power (I think 400 whp might be reaching a bit but then I tend to be conservative).

Its pretty much wait and see what sort of output and price they come up with.

As for characteristics then big turbo traditionally = big lag so again wait and see how well their strategies cope with that issue. The balance is not just about weight its also about power delivery.

 

[Mean TT]

Reducing the compression is an expensive proposition. Also, the Rods need to be replaced. I would think that the 2zz-ge would cost around $2,000 for these mods alone, not including the price of a turbo which should be another $2,000, ECU modificaiton, and replacement of the returnless fuel system, as well as a new intake, intercooler, and exhaust manifold. I would think that would be a lot of money.

A bolt on turbo I think would be pratical for a lot of people at the $3,000 mark. Once you reach $4,000 dollars, I would think there would be a lot less potential customers out there. I question if getting a totally custom turbo set up isn't a better idea. I would love to find a way to supercharge this engine, as it is a lot simpler, and usually easier assuming there is enough space.

Also, there are already well known suppercharging applications available, but packaging and space considerations are different for the Elise than the Celica. Hope this is something positive!!

 

[MammerJammer]

Reducing the compression is an expensive proposition. Also, the Rods need to be replaced. I would think that the 2zz-ge would cost around $2,000 for these mods alone, not including the price of a turbo which should be another $2,000, ECU modificaiton, and replacement of the returnless fuel system, as well as a new intake, intercooler, and exhaust manifold. I would think that would be a lot of money.

A bolt on turbo I think would be pratical for a lot of people at the $3,000 mark. Once you reach $4,000 dollars, I would think there would be a lot less potential customers out there. I question if getting a totally custom turbo set up isn't a better idea. I would love to find a way to supercharge this engine, as it is a lot simpler, and usually easier assuming there is enough space.

Also, there are already well known suppercharging applications available, but packaging and space considerations are different for the Elise than the Celica. Hope this is something positive!!

Wow... that's way out of line with the figures I see for the bolt on turbo kits... I haven't seen anything but $5000 and up. Are you sure those figures are realistic? And as far as getting a prepped short block with low compression pistons and aftermarket connecting rods for $2000?? Did I misunderstand you? My understanding was that you'd pay over $2000 for a 2ZZ-GE donor engine to begin building as a core!

I don't know.. I hope you're right, but I think your estimate is way on the other side of optimistic. Most of the threads I read where guys are doing swaps with Honda engines, they are pricing them anywhere from $12k-$20k for engines making 200-230HP.

 

[MammerJammer]

If they can hold it together and sort the compression then they have a shot at that sort of lower end power (I think 400 whp might be reaching a bit but then I tend to be conservative).

Its pretty much wait and see what sort of output and price they come up with.

As for characteristics then big turbo traditionally = big lag so again wait and see how well their strategies cope with that issue. The balance is not just about weight its also about power delivery.

I'm with you. I'm not sure what "approaching 400HP" means anyway... could be 351HP, could be 399HP, or anywere in between. For another thing, I took that post to mean flywheel horsepower, not power at the wheels. I wish I had more info on the turbo they're using, because like you, I would be worried about lag. You really don't need a HUGE turbo to get 400 FWHP though, and there are ton's of quick spooling options. Let's hope this is one of them. It still sounds like the most promising offering I've heard of thus far for the Elise though.

I keep checking the other thread for more info, but the replies come slowly on that site it seems. Definitely sounds like something to keep tabs on though.

 

[Mean TT]

My estimates were on retail prices of parts......and only parts. That isn't any labor or let alone engineering reqired to produce a kit of some sort. Also, a standalone engine amnagement system is about $1,000. But dyno time and tuning is anywhere from 500-1000. There is also the cost of installing it. I was just throwing numbers out there. I didn't include the cost of new injectors, fuel pump and other things. Time will tell. Again, I think this is why a supercharger would be the best option, but then again, you have Blitz who has the audicity to charge almost $8,000 for their kit, and then you still have to install it! :no:

 

[MammerJammer]

Whew.. glad to hear that TT.. I thought I'd really lost touch there for a minute. I know that none of our options are going to be cheap, per se, but I don't want to throw money out the window either.

As far as that Blitz supercharger, that doesn't even come close to fitting the Elise application, does it?

Also, I see your point about installation and tuning, and it made me re-read that original post... unless I'm just "seeing what I want to see" it appears to me that the manufacturer of this engine kit mentions provisions already in place for that kind of service.. I guess that just leaves the question of cost.

 

[evomind]

supercharging or turbo'ing this car will not be easy....its compression being what it is, and the fact the car is not a turbo car to begin with, makes this a VERY expensive project. i would imagine to do it right, u would want to rebuild the engine with forged rods and pistons, and bring your compression ratio to about 8.5:1....i would expect parts and labor would be about 4k for this alone.....now ur standalone ecu which u WILL need....an AEM EMS is about 2k. now, u need bigger fuel pump, bigger injectors, bigger exhaust.....figure another 1800 bucks.
so far we are at about 7800 bucks and havent even done the turbo yet....
now, lets assume for arguments sake we can even FIT a turbo in there somewhere.... and also for arguments sake assume we can fit an intercooler somewhere that sees airflow....then lets assume we can fit all the tubing running from the intercooler to the turbo, then the downpipe, and lets not forget the custom intake. ok, a good intercooler is another 1k(part only)....im going to really GUESS at a price on the turbo kit with piping and say 3-5k, parts only...we can go with a small bb turbo cause our cars are so light, spool up shouldnt be a big issue....but cant even guess on install prices cause no one knows what u will have to do as far as fabricating for the install....
but so far on a rough guesstimate im at around 13800 not including all the labor.....i think a good guess for the total project is somewhere in the 15k range.....
thats probably not a lot of money for people on this board, but...now u have to start considering strengthening other components on the car...

 

[LittleRocket]

Forced induction on an 11.5:1 engine is silly especially when coupled with a little more timing like the elise has over the other toyota applications. If you want turbo doit right and lower the compression. The parts are readly available from MWR.

400 whp is not out of reach by a LONG shot. That is not even double the h/p of a n/a 2zz with bolt ons.

I have built 2 n/a 9100 rpm 2zzs and they pull all the way to 9k (one has seen 9700 to see where it stopped pulling and if it will stay together). They made for a pair of quick Mr2s. With several hundred less lbs to move the Elise should be even quicker.

I have 2 spare 2zzs at my disposal if someone wants one with higher/lower compression, rods, port work etc. I am thourough and reasonable as this isn't what I do for a living. I will also sell the engines without mods if you have a shop in mind.

David

 

[617arg]

I have built 2 n/a 9100 rpm 2zzs and they pull all the way to 9k (one has seen 9700 to see where it stopped pulling and if it will stay together). They made for a pair of quick Mr2s. With several hundred less lbs to move the Elise should be even quicker.

i definately like the sound of this better than a turbo, just seems to suite the car better....can I ask what you did to the motor, what kind of cams, pistons, valve springs, retainers, etc, and what kind of power you made? I'd love to see a dyno graph if you have one.

 

[LittleRocket]

No dynos yet as I still have to build a respectable header for my car and get it tuned on a dyno. The 2nd build is in NC and he has promised to get it dynoed soon.

I will post up some pics tonight when time permits.

 

[MammerJammer]

I don't know guys... if you're looking for 20-30hp, this sounds like a good way to go. Personally, I'm in the market for a supercar. I want an 11 second monster that is wrapped in the most unassuming packaging. I love the idea of a 1700lb road rocket that is crossing the horizon by the time you realize you've just been beaten badly. I don't mind they idea of a turbo that spools up by 3000rpm... especially when it's going to deliver 350+ HP, but hey, to each his own. I'm all over this turbo motor when it becomes available.

 

[gotapex]

Around 400hp on this 2L engine would probably use something at least the size of a T3 or so, right? A single T28 might be just a shade small for making that kind of HP. We're still talking above 3000rpm for a turbo of that size in this application though, right?

 

[MammerJammer]

I think a tweaked T28 might be a bit on the small side, but with some tweaks, it may deliver that power level. Either way, 1.8L of displacement or not, you're not going to have to crank 7000 rpm to find power in the turbo engine... that's silly. I would be willing to bet that you're going to be making the stock engine's N/A 190HP by 4000-4500rpm, and your STRONG power band is going to be from that point until you either get scared of the rpms, or the engine runs out of breath. Now if bringing your N/A peak output half way down the rpm range and doubling your peak output at max rpm is "turbo lag," then sign me up for some turbo lag.

Let's face it guys, it's not like this engine is a torque monster.. A properly tuned and configured turbo system is not only going to wake this engine up, at 1700lbs it's going to make it damn well scary.

 

[evomind]

i have one question for all the people beating the "lets go turbo" on this car....well maybe 4
have u guys looked at the engine bay??
tell me where the turbo and all the tubing is gonna go....
where do u suggest we put the intercooler?
have any of u done a project of turbo'ing a non turbo car before??
even an engine swap would be problematic with that engine bay...looks like they shoe horned the motor in

 

[Stan]

Ever drive a turbo motor RWD midengined car hard on twisty roads or autocross? The throttle response / lag is not as good as NA or SC so it becomes harder to get all the the handling potential out of the car. And handling is the main strength of the Elise. (..first, do no harm...) The Elise is not a 1/4 mile car. If you want to turn it into one, put in a much larger FWD based motor/transaxle.

 

[Lotus Fury]

I'm with Stan on this one. A smaller turbo put in 50-60 with little spool time would be great. You start going above this and you're going to end up with some serious issues driving anything other than a straight line. There's no traction control (thank God) and it's not AWD so putting the power to the ground will become something that will require attention. The tires on the Elise weren't meant to handle that much power or torque that a 300+ hp motor can put out. It would make a great drifter, but not a great racer. So along with huge costs for a custom built engine add on costs for upgraded wheels, tires & tranny. *

I'm going to try to get another 30-50 HP off of the car along with losing as much wieght as possible (the car, not me ). I'm pretty sure I'll stick just to bolt ons and simple stuff.

Although I would love to see a rotary engine from the RX8 in it. Huge RPMs possible and 250 stock HP. MMmmmmm rotary power...

* Don't get me wrong, if you offer me a 300+ hp Elise I won't turn it down.

 

[jtanner]

i have one question for all the people beating the "lets go turbo" on this car....well maybe 4
have u guys looked at the engine bay??
tell me where the turbo and all the tubing is gonna go....
where do u suggest we put the intercooler?

This is why I think that if anything gets a turbo, it'll be the Exige. With that engine cover, it looks like there would be a lot more room for everything.

Of course, I've only looked at the Elise engine a couple of times, and wasn't thinking about where to stick the turbo. And I've never seen an Exige engine bay...

Jim

 

[Randy Chase]

This is why I think that if anything gets a turbo, it'll be the Exige. With that engine cover, it looks like there would be a lot more room for everything.

Of course, I've only looked at the Elise engine a couple of times, and wasn't thinking about where to stick the turbo. And I've never seen an Exige engine bay...

Jim

Supercharger.

 

[gotapex]

The tires on the Elise weren't meant to handle that much power or torque that a 300+ hp motor can put out. It would make a great drifter, but not a great racer. So along with huge costs for a custom built engine add on costs for upgraded wheels, tires & tranny. *

You know, I'm actually a little surprised to hear this, especially with the sports pack. 225/45-R17 A048R's should be able to hold quite a bit of power. All of the reports on the Noble M400 say that the 265/35-R18 Pirelli P-Zero Corsa's (60 treadwear) do a very very good job with the available power (425hp and 2300lbs). With 1950lbs, and 225 width tires, the equivalent would be 306hp, if the tires are the same quality:

425 / 2300 / 265 * 1950 * 225 = 305.9hp

Are the A048R's not as good?