I just read in Motortrend that Toyota is discontinuing the Celica GT-S. I wonder how this will influence the 2ZZ-GE arrangement with Lotus. I know they are still planning to use a detuned version in several other models. I hope it doesn't influence the aftermarket too much.
End of the Celica GT-S
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Have to worry about not just the aftermarket, but how about engine production two to three years down? Engine prices surely would increase.
Maybe this is the time when Lotus paid attention to the Honda S2000 engine.
Maybe this is the time when Lotus paid attention to the Honda S2000 engine.
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This may well be the reason why Toyota agreed to sell the engine to Lotus in the first place.
This way they won't have any 'competing product' in their lineup, so selling the engine is 'safe'.
Honda is a nice idea, but they categorically refuse to sell their engines to any other car manufacturer directly.
Only way Lotus could source honda engines is by buying complete Civic Type-R's, remove the K20A and then throw away the rest of the car...
(F20C from the S2000 is definitely not a 'drop in' replacement in the current elise and therefore not really an option..)
Bye, Arno.
This way they won't have any 'competing product' in their lineup, so selling the engine is 'safe'.
Honda is a nice idea, but they categorically refuse to sell their engines to any other car manufacturer directly.
Only way Lotus could source honda engines is by buying complete Civic Type-R's, remove the K20A and then throw away the rest of the car...
(F20C from the S2000 is definitely not a 'drop in' replacement in the current elise and therefore not really an option..)
Bye, Arno.
Who here remembers the "Sterling" brand in the United States from the late 1980's? That was Honda sharing their driveline with Sterling (Rover?) to create a vehicle that just didn't sell well. I wonder if that's the reason Honda won't sell their engines to anyone now?
Bob K.
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Actually Honda just started selling engines to GM for Saturn vehicles. I believe in turn, GM is selling Honda diesel engines!Arno said:
Toyota's offerings in the US are pretty boring - except the MR2. They need to wake up. Every other major brand has several cool performance cars in their line-up. Even GM!!
Could a light-weight Supra be just around the corner? I hope so.
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Is the Elise a competing product with the Celica? Or any other Toyota products? Toyota doesn't have a performance product right now.
Now they have to keep a production line open to make the engine. It might not be a major loss for them since their engine product should be indepenant of the car producing lines. Still, who knows if Toyota decides to save pennies and stop selling 2ZZ when their current contract ends.
Good point with Honda though, if what you're saying about their policy is true, also the Elise is a S2000 killer.
Now they have to keep a production line open to make the engine. It might not be a major loss for them since their engine product should be indepenant of the car producing lines. Still, who knows if Toyota decides to save pennies and stop selling 2ZZ when their current contract ends.
Good point with Honda though, if what you're saying about their policy is true, also the Elise is a S2000 killer.
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I'm not convinced that the Elise is an S2000 killer. Sure, it crushes it in performance, doing everything the S2000 does, only better... but a lot of people just want a sporty roadster, and the S2000 is a lot more practical for most people. It's easier to get in and out of, and when the top is down, it's REALLY down, not just the targa. It's a lot more of the open air feel. It's got a nice interior, good handling, and plenty of acceleration. It's also sold in greater quantity than the Elise, making it a little easier to get ahold of.
That being said, the motor is the biggest selling point for that car, and I could see that putting it in the elise could hurt their sales a bit. But why not the K20C? It's Honda's second best motor, it would fit the character of the elise, it is easy to tune, and it won't detract from the allure of the S2000.
While on this subject, though... Ford really dropped the ball by not getting one of their engines into the Elise. I don't mean that as a consumer, I mean that from Ford's marketing standpoint. They are trying so hard to play up the heritage of Ford right now, what with the new mustang and the GT... and they totally threw away a chance to bring in echoes of Jimmy Clark and Lotus-Ford.
They could have had some great marketing for relatively cheap.
Cade
That being said, the motor is the biggest selling point for that car, and I could see that putting it in the elise could hurt their sales a bit. But why not the K20C? It's Honda's second best motor, it would fit the character of the elise, it is easy to tune, and it won't detract from the allure of the S2000.
While on this subject, though... Ford really dropped the ball by not getting one of their engines into the Elise. I don't mean that as a consumer, I mean that from Ford's marketing standpoint. They are trying so hard to play up the heritage of Ford right now, what with the new mustang and the GT... and they totally threw away a chance to bring in echoes of Jimmy Clark and Lotus-Ford.
They could have had some great marketing for relatively cheap.
Cade
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It's name brand issue. How embarresing is it for Honda if Lotus can produce a much faster car using the same engine the S2000 uses.1FASTMX5 said:
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It's all in how you spin it. It's bad if it looks like honda got beaten at its own game... but if they say something to the effect of "our motor is so good, it was chosen over X number of other motors to be the powerplant for the world class Lotus elise supercar..." etc.
again, though... the K20 from the RSX would've avoided embarassment, because the RSX doesn't compete directly with the elise. It's a front wheel drive car with more emphasis on comfort than the elise. People will also attribute the performance difference to the $$$ paid for it. "Of course the RSX is outperformed by the Elise... look how much more it costs."
Cade
again, though... the K20 from the RSX would've avoided embarassment, because the RSX doesn't compete directly with the elise. It's a front wheel drive car with more emphasis on comfort than the elise. People will also attribute the performance difference to the $$$ paid for it. "Of course the RSX is outperformed by the Elise... look how much more it costs."
Cade
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why would it be ludicrous, why would Toyota sell a car that isn't in high demand? Also they're a automobile magazine, too many mistakes and noone would pay attention to them.vvtlikick said:
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While S2000 is much more comforable than Elise, it's not a whole lot more. It is still limited in storage space, has a harsh ride, spartan in interior features. Also the s2000 is more cramped than the Elise.MotorCade said:
The Celica name has been known worldwide as Toyota's sport model for decades, I can't see it dying off. And I expect that the US is the Celica's primary market, so it won't withdraw from the US to become an oversea exclusive.FederalElise said:
As for Motor Trend, I already don't pay much attention to them
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You would have think the Supra, a large muscle car with turbo and vrooom, would target the USA market but hey, it's gone.vvtlikick said:The Celica name has been known worldwide as Toyota's sport model for decades, I can't see it dying off. And I expect that the US is the Celica's primary market, so it won't withdraw from the US to become an oversea exclusive.
As for Motor Trend, I already don't pay much attention to them
But yeah, I'm not worried now as I don't have an Elise or heard a 2nd source verifying it
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If I am not mistaken, Toyota is remodelling the celica for next years line up. To make it look more masculine and such. It would be nice if they would surprise us and drop an I6 in there and call it a supra...
If toyota doesn't realize it - people want a new supra. And with such a big market for sports cars right now, if it was styled well and had decent performance as well as being marked as a $33,000 ride; it would definitely sell like a hotcake.
-Whit
If toyota doesn't realize it - people want a new supra. And with such a big market for sports cars right now, if it was styled well and had decent performance as well as being marked as a $33,000 ride; it would definitely sell like a hotcake.
-Whit
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I don't know personally, but several posters have posted their impression stating so.babak said:
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