The Lotus Cars Community banner

1 - 20 of 50 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
212 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So I was at Laguna Seca on Friday and had a blast until the last run...

My 3rd gear exploded :shift: as I was giving gas out of a turn.

What would you guys recommend doing? It seems like Sector111 doesn't sell stronger gears anymore.

What have you guys done to strengthen the gears?

Car: 05 Elise with supercharger 272hp

I will need either a stronger transmission or stronger gears that will be reliable in my HP range.

Any info on what you guys done or where I can buy stronger gears/tranny would be helpful!

Thanks,

-Chris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
212 Posts
Discussion Starter #3

·
Registered
Joined
·
846 Posts
Would you recommend just getting these gears and that's it? I use the car for the track a lot but also use the car for weekend driving sometimes.
Welcome to the club, I nuked two of them myself.
Third both times, just like you, straight pull on throttle.
The last stock box I put in lasted all of 5 track events.

If you've broke one, you will break another, that I can tell you.

I went a very expensive sequential route, for me it was that or purchase a gross of C6x's...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
212 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Welcome to the club, I nuked two of them myself.
Third both times, just like you, straight pull on throttle.
The last stock box I put in lasted all of 5 track events.

If you've broke one, you will break another, that I can tell you.

I went a very expensive sequential route, for me it was that or purchase a gross of C6x's...
The only problem I have with going sequential is that I dont think it would be good driving the car on the street for the weekends? What would the downside be if I used it for regular driving?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,981 Posts
The only problem I have with going sequential is that I dont think it would be good driving the car on the street for the weekends? What would the downside be if I used it for regular driving?

I don’t know if you need that type of solution unless $/time isn’t an issue (& yes a seq box is streetable, but may get irritating if you only track occasionally)

I would go with those jubu gear sets & call it a day (2 gears have known issues when stressed, the other 4 seem to be more reliable)... mise well just take care of the problem at hand for a fraction of the price
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
846 Posts
The only problem I have with going sequential is that I dont think it would be good driving the car on the street for the weekends? What would the downside be if I used it for regular driving?
I wouldn't recommend a sequential for dedicated street use, my car is 99% track, 1% street. Downside?, can't think of one really, on the highway track gear ratios tend to put you in a higher rpm range than stock, which might be annoying.
Also, the significant other's use of the car is over...

There is also the e153 whatever solution, but for me the gear ratios with that setup are all wrong for a normal 2zz (read sub 200ftlb) and track use.

The C6x is an cheap econo-box transaxle, no ammount of internal gear replacements are going to change that.

If you are looking for a bullet proof solution (or as much as can be had) it's gonna cost you some money, there's no getting around that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
560 Posts
I put in the Jubu 3&4 but found it was just too noisy especially on the overun so sold it to a friend also with the Rev 400 but more track focused than mine. So far so good with his 300whp. I am running a built motor and as I daily drive it I fitted the E153 conversion from MonkeyWrench racing. I am not going to break that. But it is about 22lbs heavier and has wider ratios so not perfect for the track. Great on the highway and with my amount of torque it is fine for my bit of comp driving. Be warned that the supplied engine mounts are way too stiff for anything but a purely tracked car.
 

·
Gamera The Atomic Turtle
Joined
·
3,349 Posts
I think monkeywrench still sells the jubu 3rd/4th

Jubu Racing C6X Gear Upgrade - 3rd+4th Helical - JRA-430712 van Jubu Racing - Monkeywrench Racing -

Would also like to bump this to show people there is no hard rule about what the Toyota C6x transmissions will take.
I think the "rating" of power for the stock tranny has to be the original design rating for the Celica? Maybe 130-140 whp? somewhere in there.....probably less than the stock Elise's power as Lotus tweaked the 2zz motor to boost it above original spec'd hp output? If so, I'm over double that now, and I try to take it easy in 3rd & 4th....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,182 Posts
I think the "rating" of power for the stock tranny has to be the original design rating for the Celica? Maybe 130-140 whp? somewhere in there.....probably less than the stock Elise's power as Lotus tweaked the 2zz motor to boost it above original spec'd hp output? If so, I'm over double that now, and I try to take it easy in 3rd & 4th....
Yes you are well above the design limits for the C6x... And that's my point.

There is no hard and fast number that where all C6x transmissions will blow. I see people constantly saying things like "after 300whp (or some other number) then you have to worry about the transmission".

Point is if you have a street car that isn't tracked or under track like stresses frequently the stock transmission will likely last years and years and years at even 350whp. However there are also people who track their cars and blow up the stock transmission with far less than 300whp, such as the OP. When you start adding a lot more power than Lotus does stock (figure low 200whp) then you are pushing the stock transmission harder than it was intended. How long it will last is a function of the stresses it sees on a regular basis, as well as a little bit of luck.

OP:
Honestly I've heard pretty good things about the Jubu 3rd/4th. I'm sure they are a little louder than stock, however a stock box with Jubu 3/4 is FAR more streetable than a sequential. Sequential's are considerably louder than stock, have gearing designed for the race track and not the street, and while they hold torque well they are typically considered wear items that should be gone through after a specified about of races/seasons/etc.

Personally for a street car that sees occasional track days I would strongly consider a stock box with aftermarket 3/4 gears, possibly an E153 however while it is near bullet proof you lose a gear and end up with gearing that isn't as potent on the track. I would steer clear of the sequential for a street car.

Good luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
212 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I don’t know if you need that type of solution unless $/time isn’t an issue (& yes a seq box is streetable, but may get irritating if you only track occasionally)

I would go with those jubu gear sets & call it a day (2 gears have known issues when stressed, the other 4 seem to be more reliable)... mise well just take care of the problem at hand for a fraction of the price
I get what your saying im just looking for options. So far the Jubu 3rd & 4th gear seem the best option.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
212 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
I wouldn't recommend a sequential for dedicated street use, my car is 99% track, 1% street. Downside?, can't think of one really, on the highway track gear ratios tend to put you in a higher rpm range than stock, which might be annoying.
Also, the significant other's use of the car is over...

There is also the e153 whatever solution, but for me the gear ratios with that setup are all wrong for a normal 2zz (read sub 200ftlb) and track use.

The C6x is an cheap econo-box transaxle, no ammount of internal gear replacements are going to change that.

If you are looking for a bullet proof solution (or as much as can be had) it's gonna cost you some money, there's no getting around that.
Im just looking for something that wont die for miles to come and I understand it will cost money. I was also looking into the e153 and it does seem like a good option but the only problem is you guys say it isn't geared for the track...

I put in the Jubu 3&4 but found it was just too noisy especially on the overun so sold it to a friend also with the Rev 400 but more track focused than mine. So far so good with his 300whp. I am running a built motor and as I daily drive it I fitted the E153 conversion from MonkeyWrench racing. I am not going to break that. But it is about 22lbs heavier and has wider ratios so not perfect for the track. Great on the highway and with my amount of torque it is fine for my bit of comp driving. Be warned that the supplied engine mounts are way too stiff for anything but a purely tracked car.
I dont think I would mind the noise because I really dont drive the car that much... 95% of the miles are on track and I barely drive it on the weekends.

Yes you are well above the design limits for the C6x... And that's my point.

There is no hard and fast number that where all C6x transmissions will blow. I see people constantly saying things like "after 300whp (or some other number) then you have to worry about the transmission".

Point is if you have a street car that isn't tracked or under track like stresses frequently the stock transmission will likely last years and years and years at even 350whp. However there are also people who track their cars and blow up the stock transmission with far less than 300whp, such as the OP. When you start adding a lot more power than Lotus does stock (figure low 200whp) then you are pushing the stock transmission harder than it was intended. How long it will last is a function of the stresses it sees on a regular basis, as well as a little bit of luck.

OP:
Honestly I've heard pretty good things about the Jubu 3rd/4th. I'm sure they are a little louder than stock, however a stock box with Jubu 3/4 is FAR more streetable than a sequential. Sequential's are considerably louder than stock, have gearing designed for the race track and not the street, and while they hold torque well they are typically considered wear items that should be gone through after a specified about of races/seasons/etc.

Personally for a street car that sees occasional track days I would strongly consider a stock box with aftermarket 3/4 gears, possibly an E153 however while it is near bullet proof you lose a gear and end up with gearing that isn't as potent on the track. I would steer clear of the sequential for a street car.

Good luck.
Thanks for the info! Yeah the Jubu set up seems right. I had one other question.... What about the Jubu Final Drive? What does that exactly do?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,637 Posts
I wouldn't rule out the E153, the gearing isn't good for an NA Elise, but it is not too far off the mark for higher horsepower/torque supercharged/turboed 2zz engines. I run through first and second way too quickly with my car and only have a very small fraction of a second window to perform an ideal shift from first to second. (Shifting between 8000 to 8500 RPMs at the track). I would be perfectly happy with gears which are slightly taller even if I have to give up 6th. Few people even use 6th at the track.
 

·
Gamera The Atomic Turtle
Joined
·
3,349 Posts
how many labor hours would a competent shop bill for the 3rd/4th gear swap?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,316 Posts
did you already bust it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
212 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
I wouldn't rule out the E153, the gearing isn't good for an NA Elise, but it is not too far off the mark for higher horsepower/torque supercharged/turboed 2zz engines. I run through first and second way too quickly with my car and only have a very small fraction of a second window to perform an ideal shift from first to second. (Shifting between 8000 to 8500 RPMs at the track). I would be perfectly happy with gears which are slightly taller even if I have to give up 6th. Few people even use 6th at the track.
Well my car is supercharged but I think I will just upgrade the 3rd and 4th gear...

Also does anyone know what Jubus Final Drive system means? I dont really understand it haha.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,182 Posts
Well my car is supercharged but I think I will just upgrade the 3rd and 4th gear...

Also does anyone know what Jubus Final Drive system means? I dont really understand it haha.
This is a little over simplified but I hope does a good job of explaining:

Transmissions have various gears which determine how far apart the gears are from each other. This is why a 6-speed car is generally better than say a 5-speed. Because after every shift the RPMs stay closer together which gives you more effective horsepower under the curve.

However no matter what gear you have selected it goes to the final drive gear which has one last "global" increase. So while the final drive wont effect the spacing between each gear in terms of RPM, it will effect the speed at which ALL of the gears go. If you select a higher numbered final drive you will end up with more effective torque in each gear however the speed at which each gear goes to will be lower meaning your top speed will go down. If you select a final drive with a lower numerical number you will have less effective torque in each gear but your speed in each gear (including top speed) is higher.

This is a VERY oversimplified analogy but again it kind of illustrates the point:
Imagine your old 18-speed bike. You can think of it as really having 6-speeds (the gears in the back tire), and 3 different final drive ratios (the 3-gears at the petal). The spacing between your 6-gears in back is always constant, however the total torque/speed when you have one of those gears selected is also dependent upon the "final drive" up front.

Honestly unless you REALLY want to change the top speed (typically lower in favor of having a bit more torque in each gear) of your car or something I would leave the final drive alone. It is a pretty good size for most Lotus applications.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
212 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
This is a little over simplified but I hope does a good job of explaining:

Transmissions have various gears which determine how far apart the gears are from each other. This is why a 6-speed car is generally better than say a 5-speed. Because after every shift the RPMs stay closer together which gives you more effective horsepower under the curve.

However no matter what gear you have selected it goes to the final drive gear which has one last "global" increase. So while the final drive wont effect the spacing between each gear in terms of RPM, it will effect the speed at which ALL of the gears go. If you select a higher numbered final drive you will end up with more effective torque in each gear however the speed at which each gear goes to will be lower meaning your top speed will go down. If you select a final drive with a lower numerical number you will have less effective torque in each gear but your speed in each gear (including top speed) is higher.

This is a VERY oversimplified analogy but again it kind of illustrates the point:
Imagine your old 18-speed bike. You can think of it as really having 6-speeds (the gears in the back tire), and 3 different final drive ratios (the 3-gears at the petal). The spacing between your 6-gears in back is always constant, however the total torque/speed when you have one of those gears selected is also dependent upon the "final drive" up front.

Honestly unless you REALLY want to change the top speed (typically lower in favor of having a bit more torque in each gear) of your car or something I would leave the final drive alone. It is a pretty good size for most Lotus applications.
Job well done! I understand what you mean thanks a lot!! Yeah I think it would be best not to mess with it. So now I will buy a stock tranny and have a shop add Jubus 3rd & 4th gear. Then send out my old tranny to be rebuilt and add Jubus 3rd & 4th gear as well so I have a back up. What do you think of this plan?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
6,576 Posts
Job well done! I understand what you mean thanks a lot!! Yeah I think it would be best not to mess with it. So now I will buy a stock tranny and have a shop add Jubus 3rd & 4th gear. Then send out my old tranny to be rebuilt and add Jubus 3rd & 4th gear as well so I have a back up. What do you think of this plan?
I'd fix one transmission and see how you like it. I wouldn't do two just to find out you didn't like the mod or it didn't hold up for you.

BTW, I'm at 281rwhp on the stock transmission and have no issues.

San
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
212 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
I'd fix one transmission and see how you like it. I wouldn't do two just to find out you didn't like the mod or it didn't hold up for you.

BTW, I'm at 281rwhp on the stock transmission and have no issues.

San
Yeah that is also a valid point. I have 272rwhp and the tranny has lasted me 7 years and 23,xxx miles with hard track days and some weekend driving.
 
1 - 20 of 50 Posts
Top