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Honda FCX Clarity - Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle - Official Web Site
Production of Honda FCX Clarity Hydrogen Car Begins : TreeHugger

Well, Honda has begun production of their zero-emissions fuel cell sedan. I don't know about you folks, but I think this is great news. Being able to run a car on a substance so abundant is what we need. Not only will we not have to listen to protesting tree-huggers anymore, but we can tell the Saudis to pound sand up their tails. I think in all likelihood, fuel cell technology is the way to go. It's great to see Honda take the first step with a production vehicle, albeit a low production run at first. Now, if they could re-style it so that it doesn't look so lame...
 

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I think this is a great idea but I wonder how much natural gas it takes if you have the in-home re-fueling station in order to fill up the tank. Or how much does the hydrogen cost from the stations in So Cal?

I'm all for it if it is really way cheaper than gas. Sorry but my wallet is of more concern than saving the environment.
 

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I love the car. But like many others, sales are limited to Cali. It makes a lot of sence to me.
Yes. I have heard some people who don't like the idea bring up arguments such as "Yeah but the electrolysis process requires more energy than you get from the resulting H and O." Yeah, no chit, Cherlock. There's no such thing as a perpetual motion machine. If nothing else, it shows that we are starting to get serious about moving away from fossil fuels. We all know the first step in a long trip is the hardest one. I expect this research to prompt other auto manufacturers to come up with their own solutions.
 

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I think this is a great idea but I wonder how much natural gas it takes if you have the in-home re-fueling station in order to fill up the tank. Or how much does the hydrogen cost from the stations in So Cal?

I'm all for it if it is really way cheaper than gas. Sorry but my wallet is of more concern than saving the environment.
I'd expect it to be much cheaper once it's widespread. For now, it'll be mucho dinero, but that's the way it goes.

I'm not so much interested in saving the environment as I am telling the Middle East to screw. $4.00+/gal wouldn't bother me as much if it hurt the Saudis in the process.
 

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Intreresting idea. I like the concept of fuel cells but how long would it take to develop the infrastructure and an accessible nationwide network of refuleing stations? How will the Home Refueling Station work? Honda cites a 30% reduction in CO2 emissions vs. a household with a conventional gas car and commerical heat. Does this station burn fossil fuels or is does it just shift the energy source back to the grid, which is still largely reliant on burning fossil fuels?
 

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Intreresting idea. I like the concept of fuel cells but how long would it take to develop the infrastructure and an accessible nationwide network of refuleing stations? How will the Home Refueling Station work? Honda cites a 30% reduction in CO2 emissions vs. a household with a conventional gas car and commerical heat. Does this station burn fossil fuels or is does it just shift the energy source back to the grid, which is still largely reliant on burning fossil fuels?
Much of our power is sourced from coal. We can get coal here instead of getting it shipped to us from Iran, Saudi Arabia, or whatever other f*ed up country resides over there. Personally, I think coal should be replaced with nuclear power, but that's just me. The home fuel station, as far as I can tell, uses electricity. I believe it to be an electrolysis cell. Maybe the wife can get her whiskers and bikini line taken care of while fueling the family car? :rolleyes:

The H refueling stations will take a good long while to go nationwide, but that was the case with gas stations some years back.
 

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The home fueling station uses natural gas to produce the hydrogen and is capable of providing heat and electricity for your home. However they are not to the point of actually selling/installing these things yet.

I have started to follow some of the other new technologies for electric cars and hope they will take over. Yes putting a hurting on the middle east would be a great thing.

If the company claims are true about the EEstor device and some of the "in-wheel" electric motors come into mass production we could have a great choice of vehicles that require absolutely NO oil, or natural gas for that matter. If we could only convince the tree huggers that nuclear power is safe/clean energy we could really get away from oil.
 

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If we could only convince the tree huggers that nuclear power is safe/clean energy we could really get away from oil.
Exactly. Most of them have no solutions of their own, but they will let you know what's wrong with every other source of energy out there. Many of them don't understand that the reason many parts of Europe are considered "green" is because they use nuclear fuel instead of FFs. Look at France as an example.
 

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A little bump for Mazda here.........

The rotary engine is extremely well adapted to Hydrogen fuel. Do a google search. Mazda may just have something 40 years after the fact........
 

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Hydrogen is certainly an interesting technology, but we currently get it from coal, natural gas, or electrolysis of water. When you factor that in, until and if we build a lot more Nuke plants, why is it more interesting than the already available Honda Civic GX? 2008 Honda Civic GX - the Official Honda Web Site

The GX has the cleanest internal combustion engine available and uses a fuel (Natural Gas) that many of us already have available in our homes at a cost of less than a third the cost of gasoline.

High pressure NG refueling stations are already available in some areas (probably more than Hydrogen refueling stations). In home refueling stations are already available. 2008 Honda Civic GX Natural Gas Vehicle - Refueling - the Official Honda Web Site

Most California electric plants use natural gas to generate electricity. Is the well to wheel efficiency of the FCX better than the GX?
 

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Hydrogen is certainly an interesting technology, but we currently get it from coal, natural gas, or electrolysis of water. When you factor that in, until and if we build a lot more Nuke plants, why is it more interesting than the already available Honda Civic GX? 2008 Honda Civic GX - the Official Honda Web Site

The GX has the cleanest internal combustion engine available and uses a fuel (Natural Gas) that many of us already have available in our homes at a cost of less than a third the cost of gasoline.

High pressure NG refueling stations are already available in some areas (probably more than Hydrogen refueling stations). In home refueling stations are already available. 2008 Honda Civic GX Natural Gas Vehicle - Refueling - the Official Honda Web Site

Most California electric plants use natural gas to generate electricity. Is the well to wheel efficiency of the FCX better than the GX?

I just heard somewhere that an internal cumustion engine looses up to 80% of its energy to heat where an electric engine only has a loss of about 10%. I'm no expert and don't know if those numbers are perfectly accurate but it does make sense. I'm all for a car driven by an electric engine or a conversion if it could be done at a reasonable price.
 

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I just heard somewhere that an internal cumustion engine looses up to 80% of its energy to heat where an electric engine only has a loss of about 10%. I'm no expert and don't know if those numbers are perfectly accurate but it does make sense. I'm all for a car driven by an electric engine or a conversion if it could be done at a reasonable price.
No question that an IC engine is less efficient than an electric, but my "well to wheel" efficiency question still stands. Electric generation with gas can reach 60% efficiency or even higher if there is a use for the waste heat. Electric power transmission losses will typically exceed 7%. Electrolysis of hydrogen from water is 50 to 70% efficient. Fuel cell efficiency is about 50%. That would make NG to wheel efficiency of the FCX 15% by my very rough calculation. My guess is the GX has a NG to wheel efficiency in the same ballpark. I pulled most of the efficiencies from Wikipedia, so they are certainly open to arguement.

My point is still that the GX is available now with a fuel cost one third that of gasoline and no one seems to have noticed!
 

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If you look at solar cells and compare them to grid power, they are very pricey.

If you look at solar cells as a way to replace $4.00 gas, things change. If you burn 750 gallons a year (15,000 miles, 20 MPG) you go through $3,000 a year in gas. Do that for 20 years and you get $60,000, which is enough to buy an installed solar array of over 6kW (the bigger the array, the cheaper per watt) that will last over 20 years.

6kW * 4 hours (cloudy Ohio) -> 24 kW hr per day average. The Tesla stores 52.8 kW hr on board. So on average, that's around "half a tank" per day. California and Colorado get 5+ effective hours of sun each day, for over "half a tank" a day. The car has a range of 200 miles (down from the hoped for 250). So the array makes "100 miles" worth of power every day.

Do you drive less than 100 miles a day? If so, what you pay in gas today can pay for your commute in the future at a net-carbon-zero footprint and a net-zero dollar cost on fuels. The car is freaking expensive, but we know that we can fuel it at today's prices.

And just think what it will do for a plug-in hybrid!
 

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No question that an IC engine is less efficient than an electric, but my "well to wheel" efficiency question still stands. Electric generation with gas can reach 60% efficiency or even higher if there is a use for the waste heat. Electric power transmission losses will typically exceed 7%. Electrolysis of hydrogen from water is 50 to 70% efficient. Fuel cell efficiency is about 50%. That would make NG to wheel efficiency of the FCX 15% by my very rough calculation. My guess is the GX has a NG to wheel efficiency in the same ballpark. I pulled most of the efficiencies from Wikipedia, so they are certainly open to arguement.

My point is still that the GX is available now with a fuel cost one third that of gasoline and no one seems to have noticed!
I see what your getting at now and that sounds correct. I would rather see a pure electric vehicle without the fuel cell myself. I think the whole fuel cell thing is a neat idea and maybe a great science project but it sure seams like a waste when you look at it as you point out above.
 

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as soon as they are made available in the northeast market I will be driving one :)
 

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A little bump for Mazda here.........

The rotary engine is extremely well adapted to Hydrogen fuel. Do a google search. Mazda may just have something 40 years after the fact........
I thought the Rotary motor was originally a Wenkle motor, (German), that the Japanese stole, and then re-engineered?

Or am I mistaken?

I have seen MANY cars in Benelux converted to run on LPG, (Chevy 350 V-8's, and the like) so alternate fuels are not new....but I agree with most...if we can put a hurting to the oil cartels....I would run my car on cat piss and deal with the smell!
 

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If you look at solar cells and compare them to grid power, they are very pricey.

If you look at solar cells as a way to replace $4.00 gas, things change. If you burn 750 gallons a year (15,000 miles, 20 MPG) you go through $3,000 a year in gas. Do that for 20 years and you get $60,000, which is enough to buy an installed solar array of over 6kW (the bigger the array, the cheaper per watt) that will last over 20 years.

6kW * 4 hours (cloudy Ohio) -> 24 kW hr per day average. The Tesla stores 52.8 kW hr on board. So on average, that's around "half a tank" per day. California and Colorado get 5+ effective hours of sun each day, for over "half a tank" a day. The car has a range of 200 miles (down from the hoped for 250). So the array makes "100 miles" worth of power every day.

Do you drive less than 100 miles a day? If so, what you pay in gas today can pay for your commute in the future at a net-carbon-zero footprint and a net-zero dollar cost on fuels. The car is freaking expensive, but we know that we can fuel it at today's prices.

And just think what it will do for a plug-in hybrid!
This is an interesting analysis, but I would like to give my perspective on a couple of your comments.

First, I almost always get more than 25 miles per gallon in my Elise and I only drive it about 6000 miles per year. At $4.00 per gallon, that is about $960 per year or $19,200 in 20.

Using your 24 kW per day, in 20 years you will have produced 24x365x20 = 175,200 kWh of electricity. At current retail here in KC (about $0.10/kWh)that would cost me about $17,520 spread over the next 20 years. Why spend $60,000 now to save $17,520 over 20 years? That's a lot to lower your carbon footprint. You could plant a lot of trees for that.

The 15,000 miles per year over 20 years you mentioned is 300,000 miles. The Tesla battery pack is probably not good for much over 100,000 miles. You probably want to factor in two more battery packs!
 

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Here is an interesting read on the hydrogen vs. pure electric and engergy efficency:

Technology Review: Blogs: Guest Blog: The Last Car You Would Ever Buy--Literally

And another interesting quote from another source:

Cambridge Energy Research Associates (CERA), a prominent Boston consultancy, estimates that if the entire U.S. vehicle fleet suddenly became electric, gas consumption would drop 70 percent, and electric-power consumption would jump about 17 percent.
 
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