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How could anyone think that course was a good idea? Unless personal injury was the desired result.
 

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bad bad place for a course! add that to an idiot who as far as i could tell was not driving the course buy rather aiming for the cones and simply being silly... poof, off course! i was hoping he was down the cliff in the river...
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I think he was either drunk or trying to impress a lady friend. From the sound of the engine he was revvving the piss out of the car, not a good way to enter a slalom. Yeah, the venue wasn't exactly safe but that guy had a death wish from the time the flag dropped.
 

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Poor guy. He hit the tree so hard he knocked a tire clean off, you can see it rolling back down the course. :crazyeyes What should have been a simple spin on a more open course looked like a VERY HARD hit. I hope he is ok.
Honestly it looked like he was going too fast for the maneuvers the cones required.
 

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Sure, he was asking for it. Still, just about every autocross I've attended has a "hot-shoe" who thinks they can throttle their way to a better time than anyone else. Usually it's only amusing instead of deadly...
 

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The car doesn't look like it was doing 30 when it t-boned into the tree??? - folded the car nearly in half even with some sort of roll cage inside. Even if it was a crappy roll cage it was better than nothing. How long do you think his skid marks were?

This make me wonder about the accident here in Cincinnati when Will was killed in his Elise and the car nearly broke in half from a t-bone. Some people thought he must have been doing 80 mph. If I look at the damage on this video without seeing the actual accident, I'd guess the car was doing about 70-80 mph. :shrug:

Awfully hard for me to guess how fast someone was going by looking at the car IMHO
 

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The car doesn't look like it was doing 30 when it t-boned into the tree??? - folded the car nearly in half even with some sort of roll cage inside. Even if it was a crappy roll cage it was better than nothing. How long do you think his skid marks were?

This make me wonder about the accident here in Cincinnati when Will was killed in his Elise and the car nearly broke in half from a t-bone. Some people thought he must have been doing 80 mph. If I look at the damage on this video without seeing the actual accident, I'd guess the car was doing about 70-80 mph. :shrug:

Awfully hard for me to guess how fast someone was going by looking at the car IMHO
Exactly my point in that thread. This car was doing what, 30mph when it hit? If you look at the pic when it is being hoisted away, it looks very nasty. Now try hitting that tree with your Lotus and hit it right behind the passenger compartment so that the engine will want to sheer off from the tub.
 

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Here is a side impact test of a VW Passat. I believe it is at a simulated 30mph.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyxU9-lctTQ

Look at how much the frame is deformed. It is easy to imagine that a 30mph impact between the tub and the engine of an Elise could separate the engine from the rest of the frame.

I avoided commenting in the thread about Will because I didn't want to prolong the debate. But, IMHO, there is not enough evidence to suggest that Will was doing some sort of crazy 80+ speed. The engine came to a rest very close to the passenger compartment after the crash. (Unlike the Ferrari crash in Malibu where the engine was hundreds of yards down the road.)
 

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Was the guy trying to hit as many cones as he could? That crash was a combination of poor vehicle control and pathetic course layout.
 

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That is not an auto-x it appears to be a hill climb. They often put slaloms in to act as chicanes to slow the cars down or add to the challenge.
The car in the video is not going 30mph, it's going closer to 60mph IMO

This video does not say much in relation to the Cinci accident IMO. Those old Golfs are not known for their chassis rigidity or their crash protection. The cage may have been designed just to protect one person, the driver, so there may have been no side impact bars on the other side. So I don't think the comparison to the Lotus is reasonable, I'd bet the tub structure in the Lotus is much stronger than that car, and as mentioned the speed appears to be higher than 30 mph

To also note, at Car and Driver, they do a lane change test designed to see how fast the cars can make a violent direction change (simulating an emergency maneuver ) before losing control. The Exige passed trough at 75.8 mph ( for comparison, a Hummer H2 does 52.4 mph). So while some may debate the evidence presented by the damage, based on this test one could conclude that speed probably was a factor since the car clearly swapped ends on a road that was mostly straight. That is not to say that there was not another car involved or perhaps he hit some ice, etc.
And for the record, I not condemning him if speed was a factor (it would be hypocritical of me to do so)
 

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First.. yes. This is not an autocross. It is a cluster waiting to happen.

But second, I do think the general point in relation to the Elise accident is apt. Note that the Elise did not lose the tub's integrity, which is the point. The accident sheered off the drivetrain from the car at the rear attachment points. How much force does that take? The main point is, most people really don't get what little speed it takes to create what looks like a lot of damage. This thread is a good example of that. His sideways speed into that tree was probably lower than 30mph...but the car looks horrible. The Elise tends to shed parts and body more than most cars, and can look a lot worse.

I would bet if people just saw this pic of the car, a good number of them would claim to be sure that the driver was going way over the speed limit, probably like 70mph. Maybe even more.

As to cause for the Elise... we don't know. It was winter. Snow was on the ground. There could be mechanical considerations. There could have been something else involved. Or he could have just been going too fast. All kinds of POSSIBLE variables, speed being one. We just don't have the real info on that. This does not rule out the deceased owner being a total tool in his driving... but there is nothing to condemn him with, and again, the results do not indicate he was going extremely fast to cause the damage.
 

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I agree that going up the hill he was going pretty fast but at the time he made what looks like a nearly 45? degree turn his speed looked like it was pretty scrubbed and wasn't going that fast IMHO
 

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But second, I do think the general point in relation to the Elise accident is apt. Note that the Elise did not lose the tub's integrity, which is the point. The accident sheered off the drivetrain from the car at the rear attachment points. How much force does that take? The main point is, most people really don't get what little speed it takes to create what looks like a lot of damage. This thread is a good example of that. His sideways speed into that tree was probably lower than 30mph...but the car looks horrible. The Elise tends to shed parts and body more than most cars, and can look a lot worse.
The picture I saw shows the tree hit square on the drivers door, the tub did lose integrity and the passenger compartment was compromised (car folded in half).
http://cmsimg.enquirer.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Dato=20080216&Kategori=NEWS01&Lopenr=80216011&Ref=AR&Q=80&MaxW=450&MaxH=475&Site=AB&Q=80&Border=0&Title=0

As I said, I wouldn't make the assumption of speed based on the damage, but you have to factor in that the car lost speed in the skid, so even if the hit was at say, 30mph, the car was traveling faster originally. Also note the speeds at which it took to lose control in the C/D tests

There was also another photo that indicated that the road was dry http://www.orangek.com/lotus/lotus_wreck_pan.jpg

But yes, you are right, it could have been a number of possibilities, but the strongest possibility was speed.
 

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The picture I saw shows the tree hit square on the drivers door, the tub did lose integrity and the passenger compartment was compromised (car folded in half).
http://cmsimg.enquirer.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Dato=20080216&Kategori=NEWS01&Lopenr=80216011&Ref=AR&Q=80&MaxW=450&MaxH=475&Site=AB&Q=80&Border=0&Title=0
No. Look at the photo from the other side. The car folded BEHIND the passenger compartment. The cause of death was NOT a failure (from reports I was told) of the tub nor from intrusion into the tub at all.

As I said, I wouldn't make the assumption of speed based on the damage, but you have to factor in that the car lost speed in the skid, so even if the hit was at say, 30mph, the car was traveling faster originally.
You are debating a point I never made. The speed limit on that road was 35mph and it was reported that most people drove faster than that on that road. What I said was that this is sufficient speed to cause this damage. That is all. He may have been at fault going 5mph. Or not. We don't know.

Also note the speeds at which it took to lose control in the C/D tests
Not relevant at all.

There was also another photo that indicated that the road was dry http://www.orangek.com/lotus/lotus_wreck_pan.jpg
Photos from the other side show some patches of snow. Which if nothing else indicates a lower temp, which can also be a causative factor. Or not.

But yes, you are right, it could have been a number of possibilities, but the strongest possibility was speed.
Or a broken tie rod. Tire failure. Old heatcycled A048s. Jerked the wheel. Strongest possibilities would apply to a number of accidents, but a single accident has less meaning. Something happened. We don't know what. It could have been speeding. Or speeding could have added to it. We don't know. But then that is not the point.

I keep arguing other points which I have no data on. My point again is that the visual amount of damage can come from a lower speed crash and many just don't grasp the physics very well.
 
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