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Can Front-wheel Drive cars be sportscars?


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PhlypSide said:
1) Ford Focus? Yeah, we've got them here as well, but there's no way that's the "econobox" version of the Mustang (and the Mustang is a GT, not a sportscar :) ).
I was referring to the Mk2 Focus, which we don't get. We do get cars on the same platform, however - the Mazda3 and the Mk2 Volvo S40.
 

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For what it is worth, this thread was started and dominated by an individual who has NO understanding of the history of Lotus and their vehicles, Colin Chapman must be rolling over in his grave! As I have read through this stupid thread I have found one name that continues to show complete ignorance for his own understanding of performance vehicles and the car manufacture named Lotus. I would attempt to explain why this PhlypSide is wrong but so many more knowledgeable people have tried and yet PhlypSide continues to show his ignorance. As a Lotus owner myself, one could only hope that this person (PhlypSide) does not actually own such a vehicle because his stupidity will lower the value of the rest. This thread was started with total ignorance of the concept of sports car and only so the person starting the thread could state his own rules for what a "sports car is" according to his own (PhlypSide) terms. Now proven wrong with his initial purpose for this thread he continues with blind faith to hold on to his own twisted ignorant thought.

This is the stupidest thread ever created

Of course a FWD car can be a sports car
 

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LotusElanM100 said:
Of course a FWD car can be a sports car
Sure, and a cancer-survivor can be a dominating 6-time world champion athlete, but do you expect us to concede that cancer-survivors inately have what it takes to be world-class athletes? ;)
 

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Please try to remember that when you stand with your back to the Canadian border and then turn left until you get to the sea YOU ARE NOT AT THE END OF THE WORLD!-eek-

As Bhtooefr states, just because you don’t get a particular model in the good old USofA, doesn’t mean it can’t exist. (Focus platform = Mustang platform, period!),:shrug:


Ford Mustang (all variations) Where's the FWD econobox that shares this platform? Never mind that the Mustang is more of a ponycar/GT since it has back seats, but it's definitely more of a sportscar than a Neon could ever hope to be

I’m not sure which argument you are trying to perpetuate here, no mater whether or not YOU consider a Mustang to be a sportscar or a GT (opinion), your STATEMENT is that there is no FWD ‘econobox’ version (INCORRECT FACT).


BMW M coupe Wow, is there a FWD econobox on this platform? What is it the FWD 1 Series? (Wait, BMW doesn't do Front-wheel drive cars)

What is the argument about BMW owning MINI, but don’t do FWD all about????:no:

It’s the same as saying that McDonalds don’t sell meat, but they own shops that sell burgers.

If they own it, they make it, simple as that! (FACT, not opinion!):clap:


I like a spirited debate, but when your point is continually changing, it’s like trying to reason with a drugged-up knife wielding serial killer – nothing you say will make them believe they can’t fly!:shrug:

You have other points about what YOU think makes a sportscar / GT / ponycar / souped-up shopping trolley etc etc, but these are all opinion, not fact (Obviously you are entitled to have that opinion, but forcing it on others is bullying).

Just as an aside, for the sake of clarity, can a sportscar be any colour other than Red?

How many seats are allowed, just 2?, 2+2? Or a full 4? (This will be of interest to lots of people who think that their E-Type jaguar, Austin-Healey, or some RWD Lotus’s are sportscars, because they think they are, and it may be necessary to tell my friend that his yellow E-Type is NOT a sportscar (FACT!).

Sorry, I’m being facetious here, I’ll stop that, it’s unnecessary – we’re all adults (but maybe some of us haven’t grown up yet………?).:coolnana:

According to the dictionary definition:-
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
sports car
–noun
a small, high-powered automobile with long, low lines, usually seating two persons.
Also, sport car.


[Origin: 1920–25 ]

This doesn’t disagree with the earlier-quoted Wikipaedia extract, and is the same as the ‘Oxford English Dictionary’ the basis for our fine language since 1152 AD, first published in 1884 and accepted worldwide.

This is a ‘new’ document in English history terms, but as your country is newer than my house, you may not agree with that, either!

Anyway, there is no mention of drivetrain layout, and therefore anything which fits the definition CAN be, and IS a sportscar.

Thus, my Elan is as much of a sportscar as your elise, my brothers’ Westfield and my mates E-type!

I accept that in a straight line the E-type will win a race, on a track, a good Elise & Driver will (probably) beat a FWD Elan, but for all its ‘faults’ I prefer to drive the Elan!

At the base of all this, the real discussion seems to be “is an Elan M100 really worthy of being a Lotus?”

Some may say it’s a GM ‘parts-bin’ special, thrown together for entertainment value, or an ill-fated project by people who should have known better.

But Colin Chapman :bow: :bow: started off in a lock-up garage with an Austin 7 an idea and a sense of adventure. He was a man of extreme vision who overcame ‘accepted wisdom’ and did rather well as a result of it!

He took parts from wherever he could to achieve the realisation of each dream, and turned the resultant assembly into success.

Remember, if GM hadn’t made the Elan, there wouldn’t have been a Lotus company to sell on to the Orientals, and No Elise would have ever been made.

It is a testament to Chapman’s visionary excellence, together with the (then) Chief Executive, Mike Kimberley, that (proportionally) more Elans survive today than Elises.

As I’m sure you know, Kimberley (He’s a really nice bloke, by the way, and I’m sure he’d have something to say on all this!) has come out of retirement to try and coax the company back into a profitable position, because the Elise isn’t any more economically viable than the Elan M100 was!:confused:
Lotus has never been about corporate success – it’s all about automotive excellence, tried on the track and put into mainstream production. This is why the major players want to own it!

Anyway, enough of my rambling – you CAN have a FWD sportscar (opinion).
 

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You know, when explaining the C1 platform, I really should stop saying "Euro Mk2 Focus" when there's other Americans present...

Basically, dapinky, we did get the Mk1 Focus that you guys got, but we didn't get the Mk2. They're just selling the Mk1 until 2008, at which point we'll get the Mk3. That's why transio thinks that the Mk1 (C170 is the platform designation, IIRC) Focus is a totally different platform from the Mustang - because it is.

It's the Focus that's presently sold in Europe that the Mustang is the same as.
 

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transio said:
...............but do you expect us to concede that cancer-survivors inately have what it takes to be world-class athletes? ;)
That is and has never been the nature of the question. If one cancer survivor IS a winner then cancer survivors CAN be winners. Plain and simple. That fact that more of them haven't decided to make an effort to be so is completely irrelevant to the question. It only takes one.

In commenting this way were you planning to select one of the 3 options? This thinking sounds a bit like option 2 - the "you are in denial" option.
 

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LotusElanM100 said:
.................As I have read through this stupid thread I have found one name that continues to show complete ignorance for his own understanding of performance vehicles and the car manufacture named Lotus. I would attempt to explain why this PhlypSide is wrong but so many more knowledgeable people have tried and yet PhlypSide continues to show his ignorance.................................. This thread was started with total ignorance of the concept of sports car and only so the person starting the thread could state his own rules for what a "sports car is" according to his own (PhlypSide) terms. Now proven wrong with his initial purpose for this thread he continues with blind faith to hold on to his own twisted ignorant thought.

This is the stupidest thread ever created

Of course a FWD car can be a sports car




I want to hijack this thread and start my own poll. Please feel free to vote according to the options presented below. In doing so, it might be useful to reread some of PhlypSide's comments about Neons, grocery getters, etc.

QUESTION:

Why did PhlypSide start this poll?

Choices:

1. He had his a$$ handed to him at a street light by a Neon driver and now feels he must belittle anything FWD to make himself feel better about his embarassing "loss".

2. At the grocery store, he spun out his Elise on a rogue orange while watching a Ford Focus navigate this obstacle course with ease.

3. He truly has no understanding of what makes a sportscar a sportscar and this is his chosen method of seeking other's opinions in this twisted quest for knowledge.

4. He's secretly running 3 other similar polls on 3 other forums and is copying and pasting all the intelligent answers found here under his own name making himself look smarter than he really is.

5. He's been hiding the fact that he has FWD envy from his teenage days driving a 1975 Honda Civic and, having never been able to release himself from its grip, attempts to hide his shame by mocking FWD cars.


Pick one please and remember that well thought out "write-in" answers are welcome.


EDIT: This is meant in jest since I'm the guy who had the Honda Civic. :)

Hey PhlypSide, why don't so walk on over to our forum and really learn something about Lotus and the M100.

http://www.lotuselancentral.com/index.htm
 

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[ModeratorHatOn]
Remember - everyone - keep it nice and friendly in this thread.
[/ModeratorHatOn]
:no:
 

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Discussion Starter #189
dapinky said:
Please try to remember that when you stand with your back to the Canadian border and then turn left until you get to the sea YOU ARE NOT AT THE END OF THE WORLD!-eek-
No sh*te. I'm a first generation immigrant and have lived on three continents and know this first hand.

dapinky said:
As Bhtooefr states, just because you don’t get a particular model in the good old USofA, doesn’t mean it can’t exist. (Focus platform = Mustang platform, period!),:shrug:


Ford Mustang (all variations) Where's the FWD econobox that shares this platform? Never mind that the Mustang is more of a ponycar/GT since it has back seats, but it's definitely more of a sportscar than a Neon could ever hope to be

I’m not sure which argument you are trying to perpetuate here, no mater whether or not YOU consider a Mustang to be a sportscar or a GT (opinion), your STATEMENT is that there is no FWD ‘econobox’ version (INCORRECT FACT).
So there is both a FWD and RWD Mustang? Surely sharing the same platform is not the same thing as being different "trim levels" of the same car :) [This is for our pals out there who insist their Neon SRT-4s are sportscars :)] This is the main thing I'd like to point out trim-levels are not the same thing as "platform sharing", if the platform is indistinguishable between the Euro Focus and the Mustang, what do they do with the transmission tunnel in the Focus? (Perhaps you guys get an AWD variant that we don't?)


dapinky said:
BMW M coupe Wow, is there a FWD econobox on this platform? What is it the FWD 1 Series? (Wait, BMW doesn't do Front-wheel drive cars)

What is the argument about BMW owning MINI, but don’t do FWD all about????:no:

It’s the same as saying that McDonalds don’t sell meat, but they own shops that sell burgers.

If they own it, they make it, simple as that! (FACT, not opinion!):clap:
I'm far to uninterested at this point to direct you to the thread, find it, and post this comment there. BMW corporate says they don't do front-drives, I just happen to agree with them.

dapinky said:
I like a spirited debate, but when your point is continually changing, it’s like trying to reason with a drugged-up knife wielding serial killer – nothing you say will make them believe they can’t fly!:shrug:

You have other points about what YOU think makes a sportscar / GT / ponycar / souped-up shopping trolley etc etc, but these are all opinion, not fact (Obviously you are entitled to have that opinion, but forcing it on others is bullying).
Hold on now, how am I bullying? Am I indeed wielding a knife? Are you truly compelled to take my opinion as gospel? :) Utter nonsense. Weaksauce.

dapinky said:
Just as an aside, for the sake of clarity, can a sportscar be any colour other than Red?
Depends whom you're asking, now doesn't it? (Ask this question on f-chat and do get back to us.)

dapinky said:
How many seats are allowed, just 2?, 2+2? Or a full 4? (This will be of interest to lots of people who think that their E-Type jaguar, Austin-Healey, or some RWD Lotus’s are sportscars, because they think they are, and it may be necessary to tell my friend that his yellow E-Type is NOT a sportscar (FACT!).
Since you're asking me, I'll say that:

So long as there's only two doors..
2 seats = Sportscar
4 or 2+2 = GT

dapinky said:
According to the dictionary definition:-
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
sports car
–noun
a small, high-powered automobile with long, low lines, usually seating two persons.
Also, sport car.


[Origin: 1920–25 ]

This doesn’t disagree with the earlier-quoted Wikipaedia extract, and is the same as the ‘Oxford English Dictionary’ the basis for our fine language since 1152 AD, first published in 1884 and accepted worldwide.
The dictionary also agrees in the seating, but you're right, it mentions nothing about the drive-train arrangement. So what? Surely all etymologists are sportscar drivers, so surely they must be the end all say all when it comes to describing them.

Sorry I'm not buying it, the dictionary is only a start, and for use by the automotive layperson, the intracacies and esoterica of a given subject are purposely not even attempted to be covered in a dictionary.

Wikipedia? Its a great resource and far more in depth than a simple dictionary entry, but it is something that we can all contribute to. I think it's taking the greatest common denominator approach in this article because the average wiki author drives a FWD car or doesn't drive at all (public transport).

dapinky said:
This is a ‘new’ document in English history terms, but as your country is newer than my house, you may not agree with that, either!
No need to get snotty, afterall we're no longer a colony nor part of the empire :) Old things get my respect, but not my blind allegiance.

dapinky said:
Anyway, there is no mention of drivetrain layout, and therefore anything which fits the definition CAN be, and IS a sportscar.
But of course they can. :) *Pats 'dapinky' on his head* Seen the toothfairy about as well, have you?

dapinky said:
Thus, my Elan is as much of a sportscar as your elise, my brothers’ Westfield and my mates E-type!
Ahhh and here's the rub. He's got an M100. Well then I apologize to your pre-Kia, did it perform any less because I, like many others, don't think it's a sportscar?

dapinky said:
At the base of all this, the real discussion seems to be “is an Elan M100 really worthy of being a Lotus?”
No no no. Flat out no. Now you've got me all wrong.

It's a Lotus alright, I've already even said that even I'm beginning to think it's the Duck-billed Platypus of the sportscar world, but it's just a beginning. Never have I even intimated that it's not worthy of being a Lotus.

dapinky said:
Some may say it’s a GM ‘parts-bin’ special, thrown together for entertainment value, or an ill-fated project by people who should have known better.
Now this is something I could agree with. But the M100 Elan is clearly a Lotus, and Lotus does nothing half-baked. I really do think that Lotus may have been forced into going FWD with the M100, which, again in my opinion, resulted in its demise.

Ever notice the distinct lack of any FWD models before or since?

dapinky said:
But Colin Chapman :bow: :bow: started off in a lock-up garage with an Austin 7 an idea and a sense of adventure. He was a man of extreme vision who overcame ‘accepted wisdom’ and did rather well as a result of it!
And I'm being called "mean" and "ignorant" because I'm going against the combined might of the "accepted wisdom" of all the M100 Elan owners that Elanlover called here from your forum :) fancy that.

dapinky said:
Remember, if GM hadn’t made the Elan, there wouldn’t have been a Lotus company to sell on to the Orientals, and No Elise would have ever been made.
So what? You've gotta break eggs to make omelets.

dapinky said:
It is a testament to Chapman’s visionary excellence, together with the (then) Chief Executive, Mike Kimberley, that (proportionally) more Elans survive today than Elises.
[facetious]Are you sure it has nothing to do with many sportscar owners thinking that "sporty" FWD cars are "hairdressery"?[/facetious] :) Yes, I'm being mean and poking at you.

dapinky said:
As I’m sure you know, Kimberley (He’s a really nice bloke, by the way, and I’m sure he’d have something to say on all this!) has come out of retirement to try and coax the company back into a profitable position, because the Elise isn’t any more economically viable than the Elan M100 was!:confused:
Lotus has never been about corporate success – it’s all about automotive excellence, tried on the track and put into mainstream production. This is why the major players want to own it!
Well until someone from Lotus speaks up, I guess we'll never know, although in the other thread regarding whether or not the buyers here would have purchased their Elise/Exige if it were somehow FWD, speaks volumes to me.

http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32285

Cheers.

[edit]Woops removed a misplaced "n" as there is a difference between entymologist and an etymologist :)[/edit]
 

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PhlypSide said:
what do they do with the transmission tunnel in the Focus? (Perhaps you guys get an AWD variant that we don't?)
There's an AWD Focus, as well as the Volvo S40 available in an AWD variant. Driveshaft tunnel problem pre-solved. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #191
Elanlover said:
I want to hijack this thread and start my own poll. Please feel free to vote according to the options presented below. In doing so, it might be useful to reread some of PhlypSide's comments about Neons, grocery getters, etc.

QUESTION:

Why did PhlypSide start this poll?

Choices:

1. He had his a$$ handed to him at a street light by a Neon driver and now feels he must belittle anything FWD to make himself feel better about his embarassing "loss".

2. At the grocery store, he spun out his Elise on a rogue orange while watching a Ford Focus navigate this obstacle course with ease.

3. He truly has no understanding of what makes a sportscar a sportscar and this is his chosen method of seeking other's opinions in this twisted quest for knowledge.

4. He's secretly running 3 other similar polls on 3 other forums and is copying and pasting all the intelligent answers found here under his own name making himself look smarter than he really is.

5. He's been hiding the fact that he has FWD envy from his teenage days driving a 1975 Honda Civic and, having never been able to release himself from its grip, attempts to hide his shame by mocking FWD cars.


Pick one please and remember that well thought out "write-in" answers are welcome.


EDIT: This is meant in jest since I'm the guy who had the Honda Civic. :)

Hey PhlypSide, why don't so walk on over to our forum and really learn something about Lotus and the M100.

http://www.lotuselancentral.com/index.htm
Wow really nice personal attacks :)

All the King's horses and all the King's men, couldn't convince anybody that the M100 Elan was a sportscar again

Speaking of other forums, WTF are you doing here? :)

And the truth of the matter is I'm insanely jealous because in reality I have a Kia Elan and secretly hate all of you Lotus Elan owners.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Mods, how is his post not harassment? It's not my fault that Elanlover is upset and identifies far too much with his car :)
 

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Discussion Starter #192
bhtooefr said:
There's an AWD Focus, as well as the Volvo S40 available in an AWD variant. Driveshaft tunnel problem pre-solved. ;)
And your point is?

My point is "platform" sharing is not the same thing as trim-level differences. A Neon (the example which I believe started this sub-argument) is a Neon is a Neon, even if it's a Neon SRT-4 :)

The Mustang itself is not a sportscar, it's got backseats and is a GT to me (and many). The only sportscar Ford has got at the moment is the Ford GT (irony in the name, no?)
 

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Elanlover said:
That is and has never been the nature of the question. If one cancer survivor IS a winner then cancer survivors CAN be winners. Plain and simple. That fact that more of them haven't decided to make an effort to be so is completely irrelevant to the question. It only takes one.

In commenting this way were you planning to select one of the 3 options? This thinking sounds a bit like option 2 - the "you are in denial" option.
First, I'm going to say this once. Back off with the personal freakin attacks, or I'm going to vehemently request that you be banned for not playing nicely. If you're incapable of having an intellectual discussion without making it personal, believe me when I say you do not belong here and should remove yourself forthwith.

Now then, in answer to the other part: ANYTHING can be ANYTHING. Asking if a machine is capable of being used for a given purpose is completely inane. Can a car be a plane? Sure, just put wings and a prop on it. DUH. If you had comprehended ANY of my posts, you would know that I interpreted the initial question as questioning general conceptual status, i.e. can FWD cars in general be classed as sportscars? If yes, that means we have to give a nod to the SRT4 Neons and SVT Focuses. Personally, I'm not ready to do that. I think that a sportscar is a vehicle designed from concept to be a performance vehicle. And since FWD is inferior to RWD, no one in their right mind would design a FWD sportscar. Except in the case of the m100 Elan, though the psychiatric state of the engineers who decided on that is questionable, imo. Which is why it's a fluke and not a rule.

I hope you finally understand, because that's the last time I'm repeating myself.

Now stop being a one-trick-pony and insulting amicable members. Get over yourself and move on. Oh, and read the forum rules.
 

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And Now For Something Completely Different

LotusElanM100 said:
Colin Chapman must be rolling over in his grave!
Several years ago I had a wonderful conversation with Sir John Whitmore at the Lotus Ltd LOG in Worcester, Massachusetts. Sir John codrive an Elite with Jim Clark at LeMans, was very successful in Alan Mann Cortinas and then moved on to GT40s with Ford. We were looking at what must have been a Rover-engined Elise at that time. Sir John proclaimed that Colin Chapman would roll over in his grave if he saw the Elise. His view was that the Elise is too big, too heavy and too gadgety. Opinions come in all sizes, shapes and strengths.
 

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transio said:
Sure, and a cancer-survivor can be a dominating 6-time world champion athlete, but do you expect us to concede that cancer-survivors inately have what it takes to be world-class athletes? ;)
And in your mind this statement some how makes sense? :crazyeyes

Very bizarre comment :shrug:
 

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transio said:
Sure, and a cancer-survivor can be a dominating 6-time world champion athlete, but do you expect us to concede that cancer-survivors inately have what it takes to be world-class athletes? ;)
But what some of you are saying is a cancer survivor can't be a world-class athlete. Certainly it's not the usual or norm, but it is possible.
 

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LotusElanM100 said:
And in your mind this statement some how makes sense? :crazyeyes Very bizarre comment :shrug:
Apparently, you missed the metaphor. Let me try AGAIN.

Can cars fly? Well, Jesse James made a car that can fly. So does that mean that it's an absolute truth that cars can fly? If there were a question on an exam that asked "Can cars fly?" what would you respond?

Let's recount my metaphors:
  1. International CXT doesn't mean that semi-trucks can be considered SUVs

  2. Amphicar doesn't mean that cars can be considered boats.

  3. Ambulance dragster doesn't mean that emergency vehicles can be considered race cars.

  4. Lance Armstrong doesn't mean that cancer patients can be considered superior athletes.

  5. Flying Panoz doesn't mean that cars can fly.


    ... and therefore ... (drumroll, please)

  6. m100 Elan doesn't mean that FWD cars can be considered sports cars.
Is everyone getting it yet? Do I have to get Elmo in here to explain in simpler terms?
 

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Discussion Starter #199
transio:

FWIW, I think you've been very patient and are certainly right on with your explanation of flukes.

There seems to be an M100 "Jihad" going on over here. Why? I don't truly know since this isn't an Elan board, but it is what it is :) I'm sure you're not sweating the comments of all the M100 extremists with Join Dates of this month that Elanlover recruited for M100 circle jerkery over here, I find it funny and would put money down that there's a "call to arms" or "help me over at EliseTalk" thread over in Lotus-Kia world. *shrug* I bet if you were to look at all the more recent "Yes" votes that they come from these recruited "flame warrior" neophytes.

Why do they feel the need to soo vehemently defend their car, since if it was truly the greatest FWD car evAr, it would not need defending :) I'm beginning to think that M100 driver = greatly increased chances of chip on shoulder.
 

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Firstly, to Steve (transio), if I'm out of order, I will (and do) appologise, but you cannot realistically expect me to sit here and accept what has now been said about me by another forum member, without recourse to reply!

Flipslide:-

You are, perhaps, one of the most argumentative people I have ever encountered (please take that as a compliment, I've worked with experts!):wallbang:

However, your grasp of the English language is perhaps a little lacking, you seem to read something other than is being written, almost as if you have your own agenda and won't accept any changes. This is, by definition, ignorance. (please don't confuse ignorance of a particular matter with being ignorant per sae).

To quote a number of examples from your last diatribe (which seems to be particular in its tennacious attack on my UNBIASED view on this thread).

How can Wikipaedia (written by anyone with a computer) be more accurate than the 'Oxford English Dictionary' - compiled and edited by experts?

Try going to their website if you think a 'mere' dictionary is less than an online opinion. (You may not like it, its got lots of long words in there!)

Please accept that (In the UK, and Europe, Japan, and probably everywhere except USA/Canada) there IS a Focus FWD which shares its platform with an AWD version (Ever see who won the World Rally Championship this year????? - yep, thats right, Ford Focus AWD). This IS the same platform as the Mustang, but as YOU'VE never seen one, it can't be true, can it?

Trust me, I drive one!!!!

Next, why do you feel it necessary to denegrate whatever car I own, implying that an M100 is a bit of a hairdressers car??

My barber drives a rather nice Exige S (but perhaps they don't exist either, 'cos YOU can't have one in America?).

Do you know the difference between the words 'imply' and 'infer'?????

I would urge to you look them up (in a dictionary, of course!) and see that one is given, the other taken.

How the hell did you deduce that I'm the owner of an M100?:shrug:

I take it you're not a detective, or I'd get loads of work in your court!

I own an Elan. period. full stop. end of conversation.

I've got 2, but neither are crystal, unlike your ball:crazyeyes

Didn't the esteemed Colin Chapman :bow: :bow: once invent a small RWD coupe / soft top SPORTSCAR which he sold in various forms between 1963 & 1975......Now, what was the name of that one ???????????? - hang on, I'll go and look at the back of my S4 Sprint.........

......That's it, ELAN !

As it happens, my wife (she's no hairdresser) has got an M100.

I love ALL Lotus cars (for their engineering excellence - The Elite was ugly as hell!), and have owned many.

I have raced them at a reasonable level, and still get out on the track as often as i can - when I'm not rallying my RWD Dolomite Sprint - not a sportscar, but drives like one;)

Anyway, this is going off-topic, as you seem to be engaged in a one-man war of words with anyone who has an opposing view to yours.

I don't know what you do for a living, but if you worked in a professionally adversorial environment, i'm surprised you have earned enough money to buy even a model Elise, so I can only assume that you work elsewhere!

Anyway, you seem reluctant to accept anything you don't like, this seems to be a bit like :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang: :wallbang:
So perhaps the web site should be renamed from "Elise Talk - The Forum for Lotus Cars in North America" which seems to give the impression that it caters for ALL Lotus's, but with an emphasis on current (Elise) models.

Perhaps it could be called, "One mans opinion, like it or F*** Off"

That said, I AM OUT OF ORDER, I appologise to all other users on here, moderators and admins, especially.

I have read other Threads, and they seem to back up my original belief - this site caters for enthusiasts, whatever their beliefs - it is just this one thread which seems to be esoteric and egotistical:thwack:

Oh dear, I seem to have lowered myself to your level and become emotive - as was mentioned earlier in the thread, "Don't argue with idiots, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience":bow:
 
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