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In this video, I go into a detailed discussion about sealants, the application of the sealant that I'm using and the hype associated with waxes and their claim to make your paint shine. Wax is a protectant. That is the only thing that I use wax for. I get all the shine that I'm going to get out of my paint from polishing it. In this video, I start with my paint perfectly polished and then I add the sealant. As you will see, there will be no difference with the before and after shots once I'm done. This proves my point. Polishing creates the shine in your paint and wax protects the shine you get from polishing.

Sit back and be amazed as everything you've heard about waxes gets debunked. :eek:




The Junkman :coolnana:
 

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No disrespect but I think you are being way too dismissive. Yes, polishing gives you shine as it is primarily a paint removal process. You are cutting the paint and removing surface blemishes to "restore" the true shine of a perfectly smooth clear coat (or paint) surface. On the other hand there are products that contain fillers which dull the reflectivity of scratches and swirlmarks, leaving your paint looking more perfect than it really is.

Lastly, some products actually darken your paint increases reflectivity of your paint by darken it slightly. As we all know darker colors produce higher contrast reflections and provide that wet look that lighter colors are unable to, so there is some value there in this aspect of the product.

I don't ever cut my paint. Not that I'm against the idea, I just don't have the patience. Rather, I spread that time across more frequent cleanings, and my paint appears as new as the day I bought it. What works for you may not work for everyone else, vice versa. Personally you've got the skills and patience to use your DA sander for this purpose, only because you make a living doing it. So I'd have to take what you said with a grain of salt, if you don't mind.

I was going to ask you what you thought of certain wax products regarding shine, but given you've ruled them all out in favor of your DA, I'll pass on the questions :)

BTW, I do enjoy watching your videos from time to time (I just don't agree with everything).
 

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Discussion Starter #3
No disrespect but I think you are being way too dismissive. Yes, polishing gives you shine as it is primarily a paint removal process. You are cutting the paint and removing surface blemishes to "restore" the true shine of a perfectly smooth clear coat (or paint) surface.
That's exactly what the process of paint correction does, as I explain in my paint correction for novices videos.

On the other hand there are products that contain fillers which dull the reflectivity of scratches and swirlmarks, leaving your paint looking more perfect than it really is.
That's exactly what I said in this video! So far, you are repeating what I have already stated in my many videos.

Lastly, some products actually darken your paint increases reflectivity of your paint by darken it slightly.
BAM! Stop right there! PROVE THAT. This is exactly the type of information that I see put out by folks, but they NEVER back it up with PROOF. Name one product on the market that does that and post the scientific proof that what you say is true. Not because it says so on the bottle (because that can be nothing but marketing), prove that there is a product that actually darkens the color of your paint and thus, makes it shinier! Using your theory, darkening a white colored car will make it shinier. HOW? Explain the logic behind what you just posted! This is the exact mindset that I am out to disprove. You can say anything on the Internet. That doesn't make it true. However, if you can back up what you say with scientific and undisputable data, then the facts speak for themselves. I cannot wait to see what you offer as undisputable proof.

As we all know darker colors produce higher contrast reflections and provide that wet look that lighter colors are unable to, so there is some value there in this aspect of the product.
Okay, explain how a product that has NO COLORING AGENT make the paint darker? Surely you have a scientific reason to back up such a claim. The product that I used in this video contains NOTHING that will change the color of my paint. It isn't black shoe polish, simply a polymer sealant. So explain the chemical reaction that is happening to make my paint look darker and thus, making it look shinier. Did you watch my video? I offered VISUAL proof that after applying the product, my paint looked exactly the same as it did before I applied the product. Now who are you going to believe, what the bottle says or your lying eyes???

I don't ever cut my paint. Not that I'm against the idea, I just don't have the patience. Rather, I spread that time across more frequent cleanings, and my paint appears as new as the day I bought it. What works for you may not work for everyone else, vice versa. Personally you've got the skills and patience to use your DA sander for this purpose, only because you make a living doing it. So I'd have to take what you said with a grain of salt, if you don't mind.
Allow to correct a small part about what you've said here. I do not do this for a living. You couldn't pay me enough money to detail cars. I own a computer consulting firm. My degree is in electronic engineering technology. The only cars that you will ever see me completely detailing are my own. A detailer's salary could not remotely support my lifestyle. For me, this is a passion, a hobby, a past time and a therapeutic getaway. Nothing more. I share because I love to teach. But don't bring me your cars, unless you're giving me the pink slip too. :D

I was going to ask you what you thought of certain wax products regarding shine, but given you've ruled them all out in favor of your DA, I'll pass on the questions :)

BTW, I do enjoy watching your videos from time to time (I just don't agree with everything).
And that is fair. Now one thing that I want to make sure you understand is that I mean in NO WAY any disrespect to you or your opinions. I am simply passionate about this stuff so if I come off that way, please forgive me. That is definitely NOT my intention. I value all the feedback I can get as these type of threads teach the masses. :)
 

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My observations are first hand accounts. I don't have the time or interest to provide scientific evidence to prove myself to win anyone over I have no need for that. Empirical observation is enough for me to know your assertions aren't final by any means. But given that is what you're trying with your video all I leave it to others to decide for themselves.

Anyway no disrespect taken it's just a difference of opinion. Your video isn't the be all end all proof you seem to think it is. First it's a dark car. I've observed countless times the added "punch" to a brighter color that products can have but I guess its what was written on the box.. No... it must be my lying eyes rotfl
 

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Discussion Starter #5
My observations are first hand accounts. I don't have the time or interest to provide scientific evidence to prove myself to win anyone over I have no need for that. Empirical observation is enough for me to know your assertions aren't final by any means. But given that is what you're trying with your video all I leave it to others to decide for themselves.

Anyway no disrespect taken it's just a difference of opinion. Your video isn't the be all end all proof you seem to think it is. First it's a dark car. I've observed countless times the added "punch" to a brighter color that products can have but I guess its what was written on the box.. No... it must be my lying eyes rotfl
I can agree to disagree. At least we can discuss it in a gentlemanly manner. ;)
 

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I have been using Junkman's videos for a year or so and it completely changed how I detail my cars - they look better than factory now.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I have been using Junkman's videos for a year or so and it completely changed how I detail my cars - they look better than factory now.
Better than factory is pretty darn good! :coolnana:
 

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While I agree with you on all counts, I think what's happening here is an exercise in linguistics, not physics.

I agree 100% that if you want the perfect shine, you must modify the surface property from one that produces diffused reflection(ie: damaged painted surface) into uniform specular reflection(squeaky perfect surface).

In a practical sense, where one does not have time to polish the surface(such as the time you only feel like washing the car for no more than half an hour), those quick-n-dirty all-in-one type products will produce some shine because they have filler in it, just as you said in the video.


So, here comes the exercise in linguistics part.
Polishing creates shine. = True.
Wax protects the shine. = True.
If you get the shine due to a filling agent in the product effectively making the surface somewhat uniform, what's the problem? This does not make it untrue that you get the shine as the end result of using the product.
It's cheating, as some would say since you are not fixing the cause of the problem, but the end result is that you end up with more shine than you would have if you haven't polished the paint.
Polishing => shine
Quickie-AIO product => shine.
Is shine not shine? hmmmmmmmmmm :shrug:
So I hope that takes care of the exercise in linguistics part. I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing. I'm just suggesting that the whole argument is a bit..... well I can't find the word for it, but it's probably along the line of.... waste of time or meaningless, futile, etc etc etc pick your favorite word.

..And here comes a bit of physics behind the words "dark surface" and "white surface", and why one matters more than another.
So I guess what we're dealing here is visible light, right?
If we travel back in time to our physics class(or biology or chemistry to some extent), we might remember learning something about how we see color.
It probably dealt with something like how you get a certain color due to the fact that the surface in question absorbed everything but the color you see in that visible spectrum.

White. You get it from reflecting everything.
The interesting thing is that when light hits a white surface, it diffuses the light everywhere. Any meaningful reflection becomes incoherent from the diffused light mixing in, even if you have smooth finish. Therefore, it's pretty hard for white surface to have the "mirror finish".
Black. You get it from absorbing everything.
You see more coherent light because you don't get the diffusion messing with the specular reflection as long as you have a smooth surface. It's kind of like a lake where you KNOW there's crap underneath the water and that it's rough as hell down there. BUT, you see it perfectly reflecting the surroundings because the water is _filling in_ all the crevices and giving you a perfectly smooth surface.

I did a quick google search, and found some interesting papers that actually has some science in it.
1198-1202
Why doesn’t a plain, white piece of paper reflect light, but a mirror does? • Ask an Engineer at MIT Engineering
http://lss.fnal.gov/archive/tm/TM-1172.pdf

Oh btw, I thought the one making the claim has the burden of proof. I hope your proof was as scientific as you wanted other's claim to be scientific.
To be honest, I didn't have the time to sit through your 43+minute video, so with your permission, I'd like to exempt myself from contending nor accepting your proof.

I won't blame you if you say: OMG, wall of text, TL;DR. :sheep:
I only wrote this up mostly for myself because the thread brought up some interesting points and it got me thinking. I like to talk/write as I think about interesting things to come to a solid understanding about.... anything, pretty much... It gives me time to hear/look at what I'm saying and gives me time to fact-check... myself :eek:

That reminds me... I gotta wash my car soon.
I mostly follow the whole "It ain't worth doing, if it ain't done right", but some times, gahd dahmnit, I just can't be bothered.


Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #9
... I won't blame you if you say: OMG, wall of text, TL;DR. :sheep:
Au contraire my friend, au contraire!

Not a wall of text but someone who has put some though behind his post! Albeit you are saying a lot of the same things that I said in the video so I won't go into a lot of discussion. But yes, you are making a lot of the same points I did. You should watch the entire video. It's the same length as a episode of Sons of Anarchy without all the drama. :D
 

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Junkman, I did the plastic bag test and to my surprise I found that I need to clay bar.

I was all set to do so, but then you say that you always polish after using a clay bar as it creates damage. Is this at a level that matters for us normal people, or just you paintwork obsessives? :p

I notice that car wash/detailing places offer up clay bar treatment all the time without polishing. Is this a bad idea?

I don't have a PC 7424XP (or similar). I'm thinking of buying one, but I'll need to get an inverter, as there are no power outlets in my apartment garage. I guess what I'm asking is do I need to bite the bullet and do that if I want to be able to clay bar?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Junkman, I did the plastic bag test and to my surprise I found that I need to clay bar.

I was all set to do so, but then you say that you always polish after using a clay bar as it creates damage. Is this at a level that matters for us normal people, or just you paintwork obsessives? :p
That depends on how hard you clay and how good your eyesight is. Let's face it, most folks don't notice all the swirls in their paint. For them, claying and going straight to wax is no problem. Swirls look like a turd in the punch bowl to me so claying without polishing is crazy, unless your paint only needs some very light claying.

I notice that car wash/detailing places offer up clay bar treatment all the time without polishing. Is this a bad idea?
See my answer above.

I don't have a PC 7424XP (or similar). I'm thinking of buying one, but I'll need to get an inverter, as there are no power outlets in my apartment garage. I guess what I'm asking is do I need to bite the bullet and do that if I want to be able to clay bar?
Again, see my answer above but I can guarantee you this. Your paint will look a thousand times better if you polish it with a machine, especially after claying it first.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I guess I've just realized a new benefit of bad eyesight lol
You have plenty company. But then, not everyone has had an opportunity to eat Filet Mignon so paying that much for a steak would be ludicrous to them. ;)
 

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That depends on how hard you clay and how good your eyesight is. Let's face it, most folks don't notice all the swirls in their paint. For them, claying and going straight to wax is no problem. Swirls look like a turd in the punch bowl to me so claying without polishing is crazy, unless your paint only needs some very light claying.
Unfortunately I have extremely good eyesight. Even worst, I have always noticed little details and imperfections that most people don't. Even worse than that, I work in the image sensor/digital imaging business and have spent years looking for the tiniest of defects in the image quality produced by a camera. That makes my eyes even more attuned to details.

I guess I need to polish! :(

I'm not sure what counts as "very light claying". I can feel something using the plastic bag test, but my finger tips are completely uncalibrated! I don't know what level of contamination the sensation is indicating.

Maybe someone needs to sell a kit with little reference plates that says, if your paint feels like panel #1, you only need light claying. If your paint feels like panel #2, you need moderate claying, ...

Anyway, thanks for your help, as always.


Sent from my iPad using AG Free
 

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Discussion Starter #15
... Maybe someone needs to sell a kit with little reference plates that says, if your paint feels like panel #1, you only need light claying. If your paint feels like panel #2, you need moderate claying, ...

Anyway, thanks for your help, as always.
That was funny! Here's what you do. Check your paint first and then begin to clay using light pressure. It doesn't matter what you think light pressure is, just remember how much pressure you're using. After claying a spot for a minute, check it again with the plastic bag. If you feel NO difference, you need to clay harder. If you notice significant difference, stay where you are with the pressure you're using and continue on until the paint is perfect. At that point, you have figured out what pressure was necessary for THAT car.

It's that simple. :cool:
 

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That was funny! Here's what you do. Check your paint first and then begin to clay using light pressure. It doesn't matter what you think light pressure is, just remember how much pressure you're using. After claying a spot for a minute, check it again with the plastic bag. If you feel NO difference, you need to clay harder. If you notice significant difference, stay where you are with the pressure you're using and continue on until the paint is perfect. At that point, you have figured out what pressure was necessary for THAT car.

It's that simple. :cool:
A minute! Wow, this sounds like tiring work!

I better :sheep: before starting! ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #17
A minute! Wow, this sounds like tiring work!

I better :sheep: before starting! ;)
You see how out of breath I was after claying in that video. It wears my old azz out. :panic:
 

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Clay baring leaves the car feeling great... polishing leaves the car feeling amazingly silky and just begs to be caressed :)

Yep - it's my therapy.
 
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