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Hondata has Kpro, which is one of the better piggyback options for ECUs, especially if you wish to smog, as it still retains the OBD2 port for diagnostics/smog. Kpro will also export to the Lotus dash, so you retain a lot of that functionality.
This is the only part of your post that I do not agree with. Even though the Kpro will return VIN and readiness there are unsupported monitors. My report states the ECU has been modified and that tampering with it in this manner is in violation of federal law or something to that effect. I called head office and talked to someone who was helpful, who came to the conclusion that my car will never pass again, not here at least. Hondata will not help as Kpro is for offroad use only, yet allow VIN to be returned through OBD. When I first failed I was sure all I needed was my laptop to sort this out - boy was I wrong.
 

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Couple of thoughts here.. First for reference I'm a 2ZZ REV400 owner and happy with the solution, but find myself often wondering if I should have invested in a K2x swap.

1. The solution is not what you should be focused on. Figure out what outcome you're looking for first.
2. Power - Either way (2zz / K2x) will allow for more power at a reasonable price/performance. However, the 2zz is going to top out and/or break quicker.
3. Power delivery - Turbo/SC/NA are all big decisions that have large impacts on your build, complexity, cost and use of the power. As fzust pointed out Turbos generally disappoint on a 2zz (there are some that like it), but depends how you use it. You can build a NA K24 to put down similar power as a 2zz REV400, but you can't build a NA 2zz to that level.
4. Trans - As others pointed out the C64 is made of glass at 350whp+. Aftermarket support for K2x trans is better, cheaper (AFAIK), not to mention increased support for sequentials.
5. Aftermarket support - You'll have a much easier time finding knowledgeable shops to work on a K2x engine vs a 2zz. Not to mention parts in general.
6. Tuning - What are your tuning needs? Set and forget or tweaking to get an extra tenth/hundredth of a second at the strip? On the 2zz you essentially get to choose from BOE (set and forget) or going aftermarket with a EMUBlack, Haltech, etc.. option and figuring it out. K2x has Hondata and Kpro with large communities supporting.

All those options drive different outcomes and significantly different costs...
 

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Even though the Kpro will return VIN and readiness there are unsupported monitors. My report states the ECU has been modified and that tampering with it in this manner is in violation of federal law or something to that effect.
Say, in 2019, your car's smog report showed 9 readiness monitors.
Then, in 2020 you changed "something" and now your smog report showed 7 readiness monitors and 2 unsupported monitors.
Your reg can get tagged because it's pretty obvious 2 monitors are now disabled and now you need to go to get fully inspected to verify everything.
This can happen with a remapped GTI, a stock Camaro, or a kswapped Lotus.

So, to your point, yes, this is a potential issue. However, my point remains --Kpro (and I believe K-tuner) still export readiness and you can still pass smog using Hondata.

Hondata will not help as Kpro is for offroad use only, yet allow VIN to be returned through OBD.
I wouldn't expect Hondata to assist me trying to break federal laws -- They don't want that liability.
VIN being exported via the OBD2 port can also be used to tie the ECU to the vehicle -- not just for smog purposes.
I'm glad Hondata is willing to give us enthusiasts a fighting chance to get our swapped cars to pass smog, but do I expect them to do everything it takes for cars to pass smog more or less illegally, and put themselves and their business in jeopardy, not at all.

It's a happy middle ground, whereas the stand-alones give you nothing and a stock kseries ecu doesn't allow you to unlock the engine's potential.
 

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So, to your point, yes, this is a potential issue. However, my point remains --Kpro (and I believe K-tuner) still export readiness and you can still pass smog using Hondata.
My car was never tested in this state before me. It will NEVER pass here, and not because it was ever tested here before with a different result. I did look at removing Kpro and going to another setup (piggyback vs stand alone) but that seems to be where there's just not enough information available for me to spend the time and money. To get a system I need from Hondata that's officially supported won't fit my needs.
It's a happy middle ground, whereas the stand-alones give you nothing and a stock kseries ecu doesn't allow you to unlock the engine's potential.
I'm actually not trying to break federal laws. I talked to a manager at head office about this. I will add a cat all stock Honda emissions controls. I would need an ECU that returns my VIN AND all OEM readiness to pass. I am not sure I can buy a stock Honda ECU that they'll program a Lotus VIN into... didn't get that far as if they said yes I would still have A LOT of work ahead trying to get it to pass.

If you or someone you know has a Kpro that's passing OBD emissions then that state's algorithm doesn't check for things that should be there and aren't. It checks that things that are supported are ready.
 

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I have literally done all of the above except the Kswap. Turbo just sucks on these cars. The small displacement motor does not lend itself to turbo. I could never get rid of the lag.

Kswap may be great but you lose all the OEM integration to the dash etc. etc.

TVS400 is plug and play, 11 sec 1/4 mile car. Fantastic power delivery and great integration. Don't over-think what people have figured out over the last 16 years.
This is a false statement. Everything on the dash works perfectly as it did stock with the K-Pro V4. Also, small turbo on stock engine and trans and you've got a rock-solid reliable 10 second car.
 

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My car was never tested in this state before me. It will NEVER pass here, and not because it was ever tested here before with a different result. I did look at removing Kpro and going to another setup (piggyback vs stand alone) but that seems to be where there's just not enough information available for me to spend the time and money. To get a system I need from Hondata that's officially supported won't fit my needs.
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make that hasn't been already made or addressed.

People have passed smog using Hondata. You and a few others haven't.
The circumstances and resolutions of those situations is way beyond the scope of this thread.
 

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However, my point remains --Kpro (and I believe K-tuner) still export readiness and you can still pass smog using Hondata.
My point is that your advice that was provided within this thread is not necessarily true and I'm trying to qualify this point so that someone else doesn't end up like me.
 

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Turbo just sucks on these cars. The small displacement motor does not lend itself to turbo. I could never get rid of the lag.

Kswap may be great but you lose all the OEM integration to the dash etc. etc.
Try not to generalize turbo builds. Each is different. Many people just build for the big numbers asking how much they can make. Design to area under the dyno curve and you wont have lag issues with modern hardware. I have no lag from 3000 RPM up on a 71mm compressor. (My setup has boost below that too) Granted I have put a lot of effort into minimizing intake volume and running equal length tubular manifold runners. I even went with the large volute mounted internal wastage to reduce exhaust manifold volume and flow disruptions that would be caused by an external gate.

The point is if you expect a cast manifold and huge non roller turbo is going to make power you will see it on the dyno. However, you will have scary drivability issues with the sudden power spike. Design your build for what you want and dont just assume that because some company like Radium designed your manifold you can just slap it on and get a well rounded OEM like power delivery.
 
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and personally i’d prefer turbo over NA/SC anyway.
I would go in the direction that helps achieve your goals. If you like NA power do that, if you like SC do that, if you like turbo do that. Whatever form of power delivery you like, just stick to that. I'm a turbo guy, grew up with Japanese muscle, that is what I have come to love. When I bought my Lotus it had a VF2 SC kit, it was OK for a little while but it wasn't for me. I got lucky and purchased a used turbo kit that was a heavily modified ForceFed kit and I have even modified it more to suite my tastes. I love the setup I have now much more than with the SC kit.

The downside to doing a k-swap is that there isn't an off the shelf turbo kit that I know of for it and would have to be a custom solution. This was one of my main reasons for sticking with the 2zz.
 

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I would go in the direction that helps achieve your goals. If you like NA power do that, if you like SC do that, if you like turbo do that. Whatever form of power delivery you like, just stick to that. I'm a turbo guy, grew up with Japanese muscle, that is what I have come to love. When I bought my Lotus it had a VF2 SC kit, it was OK for a little while but it wasn't for me. I got lucky and purchased a used turbo kit that was a heavily modified ForceFed kit and I have even modified it more to suite my tastes. I love the setup I have now much more than with the SC kit.

The downside to doing a k-swap is that there isn't an off the shelf turbo kit that I know of for it and would have to be a custom solution. This was one of my main reasons for sticking with the 2zz.
Define off the shelf... The only thing I didn't get off the shelf for mine was the down pipe and dump tube. Both cost me 200 all together to have fabbed.
 

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Define off the shelf... The only thing I didn't get off the shelf for mine was the down pipe and dump tube. Both cost me 200 all together to have fabbed.
A full kit. For me a full enough kit that doesn't require me to trailer the car somewhere to have something fabbed. I had to do some fab work with mine but didn't have to take the car anywhere.
What kit did you use?

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A full kit.
What kit did you use?

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I guess you're right in the sense that it wasn't a "kit" that someone else put together in a nicely wrapped package but it was all off the shelf stuff from eBay and forums.

1320 T3 manifold
eBay GT35R twin scroll
eBay WG
Tial BOV
Frozen boost a2w charge cooler
eBay silicone hoses

Easy peasy.
 

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Try not to generalize turbo builds. Each is different. Many people just build for the big numbers asking how much they can make. Design to area under the dyno curve and you wont have lag issues with modern hardware. I have no lag from 3000 RPM up on a 71mm compressor. (My setup has boost below that too) Granted I have put a lot of effort into minimizing intake volume and running equal length tubular manifold runners. I even went with the large volute mounted internal wastage to reduce exhaust manifold volume and flow disruptions that would be caused by an external gate.

The point is if you expect a cast manifold and huge non roller turbo is going to make power you will see it on the dyno. However, you will have scary drivability issues with the sudden power spike. Design your build for what you want and dont just assume that because some company like Radium designed your manifold you can just slap it on and get a well rounded OEM like power delivery.
Node is correct, of course. We can't generalize. However, having built and driven these cars in anger and done some pretty extreme and crazy stuff to TRY to get rid of turbo lag, I can say definitively, that aside from using an external-to-cylinder combustion chamber like a Rocket, there will always be some lag. I tried tiny turbos, special turbines, special combinations of turbine and compressor, custom header, custom intake plumbing, Anti-lag ECU tuning, High Compression& High boost with 110Octane fuel. At the end of the day there is more air between the compressor and the intake valve that has to be pressurized and some amount of delay in the spin-up to create that pressure. Depending on use case, it may be of ZERO concern.
To many, it is fine. Feels quick enough. Certainly great on track perhaps. However, the TVS supercharger delivers. RIGHT NOW. It feels like a bigger engine behind you. To me the torque build is predictable like a big NA motor. Are they as efficient as Turbo? Nope. Not too far off with Twin-screw type superchargers, but less efficient. From a driveability perspective it feels like an LS-Swap.
 

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The decision is, at least in part, how you drive the car ( high rev or moderate ) and how you feel the car's performance. I like electric cars and supercharged cars but I don't get the same visceral feeling as I get when I drive a turbocharged car. I think it's like listening to music. Some like a neutral sound and some prefer the equalizer setting on high treble or bass. To me the turbo is like opening up the soundstage. And going on a rollercoaster ride.

In terms of lag, it can be minimized of course , on this engine I'm very happy with the 2871r turbo , I enjoyed the slight spool up and whiplash, but I was also surprised of how close ratio gears on the track helped pulled my car out of the corners and chomp on a supercar before the end of the next straight . It makes me feel like I'm doing it and timing it just right. Love it !

Sent from my LM-Q910 using Tapatalk
 

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The decision is, at least in part, how you drive the car ( high rev or moderate ) and how you feel the car's performance. I like electric cars and supercharged cars but I don't get the same visceral feeling as I get when I drive a turbocharged car. I think it's like listening to music. Some like a neutral sound and some prefer the equalizer setting on high treble or bass. To me the turbo is like opening up the soundstage. And going on a rollercoaster ride.

In terms of lag, it can be minimized of course , on this engine I'm very happy with the 2871r turbo , I enjoyed the slight spool up and whiplash, but I was also surprised of how close ratio gears on the track helped pulled my car out of the corners and chomp on a supercar before the end of the next straight . It makes me feel like I'm doing it and timing it just right. Love it !

Sent from my LM-Q910 using Tapatalk
Yeah. It’s like driving a 52HP 125cc shifter kart. 🤣
 
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After many forged engine and a lot of money putted into my old 2ZZ, I moved to a K20 with a moderate power level of around 390 whp. It is the best thing I did into that car. Installed since now four years, reliable. Now I have time to improve the car a lot. It is a real fast machine on track. If you want info, my thread about my setup contain a lot, including the trouble I had. Of course, my setup was made to suit my request, like meeting the restrictive noise level on track, which is difficult. This explain my call to go with a turbo setup.

I am using a k-pro ecu from hondata, work great, and work great with my dash. The result is not a GT3 fighter since a GT3 is too slow... but my car is not able to fight a Ferrari 488 challenge with Pirelli slick... of course. Just in between of those two cars... not bad for a street car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
appreciate all the info a lot, leaning towards a SC kit and installing as much as i can myself, possibly all of it. Anything left unfinished i know can be done at a shop locally. I care most about street driving and some occasional days at the track but not too much. Reliable and consistent power are the biggest factors
 
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