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Discussion Starter #1
This is kind of funny. Ever since I signed up for EliseTalk/LotusTalk well over a year and a half ago all I have ever heard is DON'T LIFT IN THE CORNERS. This past weekend I took the first of 4 classes in a racing school at Driveway Austin (512) 971-9100. Pretty much the whole first class was about managing the weight of your car and the largest part was about either braking through the corner (trail braking) or lifting to get the car to rotate.

Now this is the sucky part for me. I've done 8 track events before taking this school and this whole time I have been scared to death to lift in a corner due to what has been said on these forms. This has really held me back from being really fast on the track. At the class I was able to overcome this fear of lifting in a corner or breaking deep into the corner and I was literately amazed at the amount of rotation I could achieve without the car spinning or loosing control. After this class was completed I was entering corners probably 10%-15% faster than before, kicking the rear out with a little lift and allowing the front tires to gain some grip back. The car actually felt like it was rotating at the center versus just driving around the corner and I felt in control of the car the whole time. Great thing is I was not only faster into the corner I was faster out of the corner as well.

How many people out there are as scared of lifting as I was?

How many people out there are using this technique to get around corners?

How come this is not a regularly discussed topic here? or did I just miss it?


Disclaimer: The lifting Im talking about is not violently taking your foot off of the throttle (which will likely make you spin). Im talking about a controlled lift of anywhere from 1/8th to 1/2 throttle to start shifting weight forward so your front tires get enough traction to turn and your car is pointed the direction you like.
 

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Lifting in corners to rotate the car = fun

How many people out there are as scared of lifting as I was?
+1

How many people out there are using this technique to get around corners?
+1 (although I am sure I could do it more and better)

How come this is not a regularly discussed topic here? or did I just miss it?
I agree. It could be discussed more... but it is a secret!
 

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I always called it throttle steer and I do it all the time. Depending on the car and the conditions wanted, more or less throttle input turns the car so you can turn the car without turning the wheel for minor adjustments.

In my RX-8, I used to hang the rear end out slightly this way through a corner and then bring it back in on exit. The car was very neutral and I have lots of experience with fr platforms.

I have admittedly been a bit more timid about it in the Elise with the engine in the rear. I would like to do a skidpad session so I can figure just how much I can get away with.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I have admittedly been a bit more timid about it in the Elise with the engine in the rear. I would like to do a skidpad session so I can figure just how much I can get away with.
You can get away with much more than you expect. You can kick the rear out a good 10-15 degrees pretty easily and bring it back without issue. On several occasions I was able to get the rear out near 30 degrees and bring it back with just the throttle and zero steering input. 30 degrees is however more than you really want and you will probably eventually loose it and spin.
 

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There is also the issue of scrubbing speed if you do it too much. Next time I am at the track I will be more liberal with the use of the throttle and see what happens.

There have been many times it felt it needed it but I didn't. I chose the go slower next time through method. :(

I am glad to hear this brought up because in the back of my head I wanted to, but so many warned against lifting it deterred me.
 

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Disclaimer: The lifting Im talking about is not violently taking your foot off of the throttle (which will likely make you spin). Im talking about a controlled lift of anywhere from 1/8th to 1/2 throttle to start shifting weight forward so your front tires get enough traction to turn and your car is pointed the direction you like.
I think you have the fundamental distinction - a light breathe off the throttle to help rotate is one thing, a sudden lift off the throttle is another thing entirely and will rotate your car about 330 degrees more than you intended... :panic:



Cheers,
-Darryl
 

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One word: autocross. It's the best place to learn how to take advantage of trailing throttle oversteer, without being a menace to yourself, your car, and the general populace.

I use it on the track, never on the street.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
One word: autocross. It's the best place to learn how to take advantage of trailing throttle oversteer, without being a menace to yourself, your car, and the general populace.

I use it on the track, never on the street.
An AutoX would be a good place to play with the slow speed stuff, but probably wont do a whole lot for the higher speed 70-80mph corners you find on most tracks. DE's are normally to crowed to experiment a lot safely. At the racing school there were only 5 people on track at once, so it was not much of an issue. Also the portion of the track we were running on was only 6/10ths of a mile so you get to practice each of the 7 turns quite a bit.
 

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I've tended to use the throttle lift oversteer technique quite a bit on tight corners that I'm carrying a lot of speed into... where instead of letting the car understeering, I'll just lift a little when I'm back on the throttle, bringing the back end around just a bit, and tightening up the turn. Lots a fun - but it does take practice!
 

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An AutoX would be a good place to play with the slow speed stuff, but probably wont do a whole lot for the higher speed 70-80mph corners you find on most tracks. DE's are normally to crowed to experiment a lot safely.
True - you do have to watch for your neighbors... and leave yourself plenty of room to screw up... :eek:
 

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A statement such as "don't lift in corners" seems to be a generic guide to summarize the fact that you don't want to transfer too much weight off of the back tires when an threat of snap oversteer exists. As the throttle is not an on/off switch, adjustments and modulation can be required in almost every corner.

Every corner is different. So, generic rules like this aren't very good teaching aids. Keep using a schools and instructors that can impart technique and training much more quickly and appropriately for your style and goals. These forums are a great tool, but they're just not as well suited to coach you at the track like a quality instructor can.
 

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I think people just said "don't lift" when referring to a panic situation, where the person sees something ahead and lifts not thinking they have to get back on the throttle to prevent a spin. Whereas you're planning to get back on the throttle 100% immediately (and were not fully off throttle), which is used when tail braking or just having fun around longer corners :D

And I agree with Darryl's post
 

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The key is throttle modulation. A slight lift to tuck the nose in, when you know what to expect, is useful. A complete lift in a panic when you've overcooked a turn is problematic.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
My problem is that it seems to be a blanket statement and even though its generic, it is usually put out there as Gospel. This is where it can scare people enough that they do not think there cars are able to do some of these things.

Ive known for a while that really small adjustments were OK, but I never conceived that you could make much larger throttle adjustments and be able to control the car.
 

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Yeah, kind of lilke my tag line - late apex, don't lift... a general rule. And when I instruct new students, that's exactly what I teach.

Trail braking, or throttle lift oversteer aren't techniques that you show someone that doesn't have the basic skills down cold. They're little goodies that you show someone as they progess their skills... as you develop a good student/instructor relationship, and trust.
 

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I think people just said "don't lift" when referring to a panic situation,
+1. I think the statement arises from the situation a lot of newbies get into (myself included): the back end breaks free coming out of a corner and the initial instinct for many is to take your foot off the gas. In a front engined car, this isn't too much of a big deal because it's easier to catch. But in something like an Elise or Exige (or F430, and most of all a 911), that instinct will get you into a WHOLE lot of trouble as all that mass in back has a lot more momentum and is tougher to catch. I think this is why you hear "don't lift!" as standard advice to track newbies.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
in general how much of a lift are we talking here, a few hundred rpm? less? more?
Depends on the corner, your current gear, RPM, speed and how close you are to the limit. Ive found you can lift quite a lot (much more than I ever thought possible) get the rear end out a bit while adding additional traction to the front tires. It actually feels like your about to spin, but as soon as you get back on the gas and everything comes back to where it should. If done correctly you have completed the turn at a much faster speed than you ever could without the extra rotation given by the lift.

Remember that this is a smooth lift of the throttle, not abrupt. You don't want to do anything to upset the car or you may spin. If you want to practice this, make sure you do it in a safe place as you may spin trying to find the limit. If at a HPDE event make sure no one is behind you. Also remember baby steps, there is no reason to go balls to the wall when you can gradually work your way up.
 

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Depends on the corner, your current gear, RPM, speed and how close you are to the limit. Ive found you can lift quite a lot (much more than I ever thought possible) get the rear end out a bit while adding additional traction to the front tires. It actually feels like your about to spin, but as soon as you get back on the gas and everything comes back to where it should. If done correctly you have completed the turn at a much faster speed than you ever could without the extra rotation given by the lift.

Remember that this is a smooth lift of the throttle, not abrupt. You don't want to do anything to upset the car or you may spin. If you want to practice this, make sure you do it in a safe place as you may spin trying to find the limit. If at a HPDE event make sure no one is behind you. Also remember baby steps, there is no reason to go balls to the wall when you can gradually work your way up.
gotcha. sounds like the approach should be gentle, similar to that in trail braking, which i rarely try in the lotus for much the same reasons people say don't lift in a corner!
 
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