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I wouldn't call it a 'flame war', I'd call it a typical car forum/yahoo discussion.

A few random musings:

- Chili does make some points.

- Most of the posters replying are simply uninformed. They use the pat line of 'high maintenance costs' which is simply not true.

- I think the author of that article is going WAAAAY out on a limb comparing the Toyota 800 and the 2000GT. The ToyotaBaruScion looks NOTHING and I mean, NOTHING like those cars. I can look at a first gen Miata and see an Elan. I don't see either one of those cars in this.

- To the OP, I hope you enjoy your car. I'm a 41 year old father of 3, so my daily has to hold kids which means this is out. If I'm gonna have a toy, it ain't this.

- As much as I hate to say it, we all KNOW what's going to happen with these cars. They will become THE and I mean, THE ricer car. It's unfortunate, because what should be a good 'enthusiast's car' with become the car dujour of the flat brimmed hat crowd. You know it's gonna happen. Hell, it's what those damn Scion TCs already are. I know it's blasphemy to speak ill of Evos or STis, but that's pretty much 95% of who I see driving those cars.
 

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FRS does seem like A way to go. Brand new for about the same price as an '05 elise, it might be out there to compete with the miata/s2k, cuz lets face it, almost all 2+2s might as well be 2+ (extra trunk space) or 2+ (bed)
 

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Comparing a used tempermental racy roadster to a new, reliable, warrantied, 2+2 sport coupe, is silly. Apples to oranges.

And for that money you can buy some purpose built open wheel machines, or some fast old muscle, or modified sport compacts, or probably even some farm equipment... Not sure what that proves?!
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
its the wife's car for the next 5+ years. a little luxury, a little sportiness, a good scion warranty and reliability. should do her well.

my toy is the elise.

edit: we have a suv-ish car also swinglo. i don't need to be showing off on the road with kids or pets.
 

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I don't see it as a flame war at all. Some valid points. While the back seats won't hold your 6' friend, Jedd, it'll likely hole my 11 year old son. We drove an Evora over the weekend and noted that one of the huge advantages over my Elise is that when we want to go to a car show (the wife would rather get a root canal), my 2 boys and me would fit. The Toyobaru would do this.

I thought they were rather tame about the maint issues and ingress/egress issues of the Elise/Exige. Ever hear of the plastic radiator self destructing? Oil line crimps failing? Sure, the base Toyota parts are pretty reliable, but (sorry) the stupidity of Lotus comes through in the lack of quality and the lack of thought in a lot of places. There are very easy modifications in the Elise that it just seems like Lotus said "hey, it's 5:00 on the last design day.....tie up the loose ends, boys, we're finished here".

I can hear you guys saying how it's not a problem getting in/out of the Elise/Exige. Sorry.....can't agree there. I do have methods to get myself in and out, but with an ailing back, it's become more obvious to me that something like a movable (or removable) steering wheel would make it worlds better. I can honestly say that 2 of my previous cars.....a Shelby Cobra replica and caged prepared C 87 CRX racecar were difficult, but not as much so compared to the Elise. The Cobra had a high sil, but it was narrow. For some reason, my legs were always way clear of the burning hot sidepipes. The CRX had the cage to crawl through, but the openning was big and the steering wheel was easier to get around....even with a bolted down aluminum Kirkey and non-removable stock sized steering wheel.

In the end, though, the question is what is the car to be used for. If a daily driver or only car, then I'd run from most of the alternate choices. Actually, I'd pickup a base, brand new WRX, which can be had for the same money. If a fun weekend car, with no necessary practicallity, I can't think of something more fun than the Elise. It was the driving force that made my decision not to sell the Elise and pick up an excellent, new 11 Evora.
 

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1) Please don't mistake jalopnik for an automotive journalism site. It's a gawker subsidiary, so it's designed to be sensational first - everything is the greatest, the best, the biggest, and every $20k car is the next one to give the $100 Porsche (or $250k Ferrari) a run for its money.
2) Here's the way I look at things: Lotus starts with a $100k of engineering, then they strip away everything that isn't designed to create the most direct driving experience, and that allows them to get the price to $75k. Then, because they are small, and cannot benefit from economies of scale, they lose +/-$15k on every car, and sell them for $60k-ish.
3) Cars like the FRS - and this has nothing to do with whether it's the best $25k sports GT out there - start with $50k of engineering, then they strip away whatever they can, or produce it in a slightly different variation/material, so as to get the price down to $25k. Their economies of scale allow them to bring that price down to $15k. Then they add back electronics, creature comforts, etc. to get the price to $20k. They then sell the cars for $25k, and make $5k on every car.
4) A true enthusiast appreciates each car for what it does, and how well it does it. It's not about "better." As SwingLo said, if you need something to carry x passengers, and be a daily driver, then there are things that are good at that. If you need something to tow a boat, there are things that are good at that.
 

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Saw the Subaru version, the BRZ, on the road this weekend. Was running with it in traffic on the beltway, so got a good look. Nice looking car, if it handles like they say, it will be a hit. They'll give it some more power, no doubt, after year one (see also BMW Z3, Pontiac Solstice, Lotus in year 3 with the supercharged Exige, etc) to keep the interest going.

Nothing compares with the Elige...and that's both a compliment and a curse. But it's true, they are unique in most respects.
 

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As much as I hate to say it, it will be a hit....

with the flat brimmed Fast and Furious decals crowd

Mark my words. You heard it here. Right or wrong, I simply don't see the Scion marque as an 'enthusiasts' brand, but rather a ricer boi brand. Sorry, just going by what I see and when I see Scions, I see:

- Riced out kids driving TCs all riced out
- Young (high school, college) girls driving stock TCs (inexpensive, but 'sporty').
- Comic book dork Apple store employees driving those square box Xb Scions
- Womyn's Studies majors wearing Lisa Loeb glasses driving Xbs with the obligatory Apple logo sticker and a 'COEXIST' sticker

That's just what I see.
 

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At least we don't have to look at those Oakley stickers anymore!!

There's a TC in my neighborhood. At first, I thought they only came with a one-speed transmission, since based on the engine sound, I assumed it was always in first gear. rotfl

As much as I hate to say it, it will be a hit....

with the flat brimmed Fast and Furious decals crowd

Mark my words. You heard it here. Right or wrong, I simply don't see the Scion marque as an 'enthusiasts' brand, but rather a ricer boi brand. Sorry, just going by what I see and when I see Scions, I see:

- Riced out kids driving TCs all riced out
- Young (high school, college) girls driving stock TCs (inexpensive, but 'sporty').
- Comic book dork Apple store employees driving those square box Xb Scions
- Womyn's Studies majors wearing Lisa Loeb glasses driving Xbs with the obligatory Apple logo sticker and a 'COEXIST' sticker

That's just what I see.
 

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As much as I hate to say it, it will be a hit....

with the flat brimmed Fast and Furious decals crowd

Mark my words. You heard it here. Right or wrong, I simply don't see the Scion marque as an 'enthusiasts' brand, but rather a ricer boi brand. Sorry, just going by what I see and when I see Scions, I see:

- Riced out kids driving TCs all riced out
- Young (high school, college) girls driving stock TCs (inexpensive, but 'sporty').
- Comic book dork Apple store employees driving those square box Xb Scions
- Womyn's Studies majors wearing Lisa Loeb glasses driving Xbs with the obligatory Apple logo sticker and a 'COEXIST' sticker

That's just what I see.
I guess one could get oneself worked up over this, but times are what they are. The 'flat brimmed' folks you talk about today were the guys in the 60's and 70's buying all those Chevelles, Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers, etc. and putting mag wheels, hood scoops, racing stripes, lowering them, jacking them up, etc. Yes, they even put diaplanes (pre splitters) and rear spoilers on them.

Not all the 'muscle' cars were Boss 302's, Yenko Stingers, and 440/six pack Challengers. A lot of what you would see 'breezing the Freeze' back then were the regular versions of those cars, which were more affordable by the kids, which were then dressed up with a JC Whitney catalogue.

4 cylinder, high revving cars ARE what are at the disposal of young gear heads today. A teenager or 20, even 30 something can't go out and drop 40 or 50 large on a Camaro SS or Shelby GT500. But they can scrape together $15 to $25K for these kinds of cars.

Actually, with 05 and 06 Elises now firmly in the mid-twenties and lower, you're starting to see more of THOSE at 'ricer' gatherings.

Right here on this board I see a ton of cars with carbon fiber add ons...and not because of weight savings. I see huge wings installed...on cars that never see a track and have no need for extra downforce. There are stripes, windshield banners, mesh kits, bigger scoops, etc....on cars many, if not most folks, are driving only on weekends.

What's the difference?

As far as Scion never having racer creds as a brand, can't be said for it's Subaru brethren: the BRZ. A subaru WRX is more than a match out of the box for an Elise in many respects, and Subaru has some very real rally racing creds.

To me, anybody building a car with an enthusiast bent in this day and time is a plus. The demographics of the market will sort itself out.

Frankly, when I owned any of my Lotus, the 'flat brimed Fast and Furious crowd' were often the ones with whom I could have the most informed conversation about the Lotus. They know what it is, they know how it's powered, they know its specs. From that demographic, I hardly ever got 'Is it a kit?' 'Who makes it?' 'How much does it cost?' I found informed 'fawning' far more engaging than the poser based fawining.

The only reason that crowd isn't on this board is because they don't have the resources to buy Lotus (again, now with the exception of the 05's and some 06's).

Not worth getting worked up over, really.
 

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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
I think the new breeze/scion looks like the ferrari scaglietti. you can pick a used one of these up for $100,000 usd if you really want the look.





i also think they follow the Z line / infinity line.

ps - agree with lotusforsale. car enthusiasts come in all shapes and sizes. no reason to be prejudice against any of the groups. if they are into cars, then yay.
 

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I wouldn't call it a 'flame war', I'd call it a typical car forum/yahoo discussion.

A few random musings:

- Chili does make some points.

- Most of the posters replying are simply uninformed. They use the pat line of 'high maintenance costs' which is simply not true.

- I think the author of that article is going WAAAAY out on a limb comparing the Toyota 800 and the 2000GT. The ToyotaBaruScion looks NOTHING and I mean, NOTHING like those cars. I can look at a first gen Miata and see an Elan. I don't see either one of those cars in this.

- To the OP, I hope you enjoy your car. I'm a 41 year old father of 3, so my daily has to hold kids which means this is out. If I'm gonna have a toy, it ain't this.

- As much as I hate to say it, we all KNOW what's going to happen with these cars. They will become THE and I mean, THE ricer car. It's unfortunate, because what should be a good 'enthusiast's car' with become the car dujour of the flat brimmed hat crowd. You know it's gonna happen. Hell, it's what those damn Scion TCs already are. I know it's blasphemy to speak ill of Evos or STis, but that's pretty much 95% of who I see driving those cars.
As usual, Swingie is dead on. :clap:

Some cars just end up being the choice of one group or another. Its a fact, it aint hatin.

I guess one could get oneself worked up over this, but times are what they are. The 'flat brimmed' folks you talk about today were the guys in the 60's and 70's buying all those Chevelles, Mustangs, Camaros, Challengers, etc. and putting mag wheels, hood scoops, racing stripes, lowering them, jacking them up, etc. Yes, they even put diaplanes (pre splitters) and rear spoilers on them.

Not all the 'muscle' cars were Boss 302's, Yenko Stingers, and 440/six pack Challengers. A lot of what you would see 'breezing the Freeze' back then were the regular versions of those cars, which were more affordable by the kids, which were then dressed up with a JC Whitney catalogue.

4 cylinder, high revving cars ARE what are at the disposal of young gear heads today. A teenager or 20, even 30 something can't go out and drop 40 or 50 large on a Camaro SS or Shelby GT500. But they can scrape together $15 to $25K for these kinds of cars.

Actually, with 05 and 06 Elises now firmly in the mid-twenties and lower, you're starting to see more of THOSE at 'ricer' gatherings.

Right here on this board I see a ton of cars with carbon fiber add ons...and not because of weight savings. I see huge wings installed...on cars that never see a track and have no need for extra downforce. There are stripes, windshield banners, mesh kits, bigger scoops, etc....on cars many, if not most folks, are driving only on weekends.

What's the difference?

As far as Scion never having racer creds as a brand, can't be said for it's Subaru brethren: the BRZ. A subaru WRX is more than a match out of the box for an Elise in many respects, and Subaru has some very real rally racing creds.

To me, anybody building a car with an enthusiast bent in this day and time is a plus. The demographics of the market will sort itself out.

Frankly, when I owned any of my Lotus, the 'flat brimed Fast and Furious crowd' were often the ones with whom I could have the most informed conversation about the Lotus. They know what it is, they know how it's powered, they know its specs. From that demographic, I hardly ever got 'Is it a kit?' 'Who makes it?' 'How much does it cost?' I found informed 'fawning' far more engaging than the poser based fawining.

The only reason that crowd isn't on this board is because they don't have the resources to buy Lotus (again, now with the exception of the 05's and some 06's).

Not worth getting worked up over, really.
LFS - as usual, YOU also hit some good points here. However, I just cant see comparing musclecar tuner kids from the 60's to the current crop. Sure, they(old school) bolted on exhausts and scoops and all that too. I think the issue me and others have is the the mods back then usually did something to the performance of the car. A downforce wing on a FWD car is as usless as a football bat. Kanji letters, stickers on the windows, "VTec" logos, and that sort of crap seems silly to me. Some of those mods are tasteful and valid but plenty are not. These guys have $7K in Injen intake parts on a $2500 dollar,15 year-old Accord with rusty quarter panels. That doesnt scream enthusiast to me, it screams clown. The other one I love is the whacked-out camber adjutsments these kids do. They likely dont even know what its for but it certainly is NOT for street driving. I did a camber adjustment once in my 3-series Bimmer but that was for a track day at Watkins Glen. I immediately had it dialed back in to normal after the event. These guys drive all day like that and go through tires every month too.

I get the concept that us 40 year olds dont want to admit that we had some "punkness" in us too back then. We probably did. But, I dont ever remember doing pointless mods to any cars like I see now. Id get headers and an exhaust for the sound and performance gains. And, it actually sounded good instead of lame. I dunno.

I do agree that my Esprit does get positive attention from these guys sometimes though. They like the styling, they like the 4-banger and the like the turbo! :)
 

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As LFS - as usual, YOU also hit some good points here. However, I just cant see comparing musclecar tuner kids from the 60's to the current crop. Sure, they(old school) bolted on exhausts and scoops and all that too. I think the issue me and others have is the the mods back then usually did something to the performance of the car. A downforce wing on a FWD car is as usless as a football bat. Kanji letters, stickers on the windows, "VTec" logos, and that sort of crap seems silly to me. Some of those mods are tasteful and valid but plenty are not. These guys have $7K in Injen intake parts on a $2500 dollar,15 year-old Accord with rusty quarter panels. That doesnt scream enthusiast to me, it screams clown. The other one I love is the whacked-out camber adjutsments these kids do. They likely dont even know what its for but it certainly is NOT for street driving. I did a camber adjustment once in my 3-series Bimmer but that was for a track day at Watkins Glen. I immediately had it dialed back in to normal after the event. These guys drive all day like that and go through tires every month too.

I get the concept that us 40 year olds dont want to admit that we had some "punkness" in us too back then. We probably did. But, I dont ever remember doing pointless mods to any cars like I see now. Id get headers and an exhaust for the sound and performance gains. And, it actually sounded good instead of lame. I dunno.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I find the time warp of young gear head back then and young gear head now being directly analogous. You are kidding yourself if you think those kids' understanding of their cars begins and ends with stickers, decals, etc. They are hobbyists, and like any hobby you can bell curve the level of involvement. There are some who simply like to pose, and they will dress it up within their means and to their taste. Same can be said here. There are some who can and want incremental performance and handling gains, same can be said here. There are some who are master tuners and know the physics and engineering of their cars inside and out, same can be said here.

Oh, and in some racing, rear downforce on a front wheel drive car does indeed serve a purpose. It need not be a totally useless appendage. And again, a giant wing on a street driven exclusively elise is no less useless. They are both there for exactly the same reason, none of which has to do with car performance.

Oh...check out this pic of a front wheel drive car from a certain manufacturer we all love that had no problem putting a little wing on the back.
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=pictures+of+M100+elan&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1T4ADRA_enUS436US436&biw=1440&bih=584&tbm=isch&prmd=imvnsfd&tbnid=9CQdGgBtwBwoTM:&imgrefurl=http://www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/elan.html&docid=9qE1_s0Pt7i46M&imgurl=http://www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/elan/elan2.jpg&w=550&h=357&ei=pPrET-7hKebH6AHEtLyjCg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=78&vpy=59&dur=0&hovh=181&hovw=279&tx=128&ty=94&sig=100829269209666662809&page=1&tbnh=119&tbnw=158&start=0&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:73

Go to a cruise night sometime for older muscle cars and hot rods. Take a look at the 'restored' street cars such as Mustangs, Chargers, Challengers, etc. Take a look at how many have fake scoops...'brake' intakes or hood scoops. From the factory. Totally useless. Take a look at the trunk lid 'wings' on the Pontiac Judge, the Mustangs, the Buick GSX's. Do you believe those were in any way functional? Look under the hood of those cars that were fixed up...look at all the faux stainless steel hoses, the chrome cam covers, the color coded ignition wires. Look inside at gauges that are not connected to anything. Better yet, look under the hood and see how many of those dressed up cars are six cylinders!

C'mon...look at a JC Whitney catalogue. They are FULL of useless bling that guys 'back then' put all over their cars.

Young car enthusiasts have always gotten involved 'on the cheap.' That's all they can afford. That hasn't changed one bit since the 40's, 50's, 60's through the present.
 

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I kinda sorta agree with everything everyone said, but I just go to 'car stigma'. Right or wrong, certain cars have stigmas based on who drives them.

Hell, Harley guys are Harley guys.

For example, we all know who drove IROC-Zs in the day - there's a reason they were called 'I Run on Cologne' or 'Italian Retard Out Cruisin'

Right our wrong, most import/tuner type cars do have a stigma. This may be blasphemy, but honestly, my Lotus opened me up to the world of cars. I didn't know about many cars and honestly, didn't care. Bitten by the bug, 'nuff said. Frankly, I had no idea that as a car 'enthusiast', I was supposed to care about EVOs and STI's. No idea they were 'great cars'. I never looked twice. If I saw one and DID notice it, I guess I just assumed it was some ricer kid car with a body kit and some decals. That's probably the perception of many people because that's who we see driving the cars. Sorry, but I simply can't take the 'ricer cars' seriously. Why? Because they are largely teenager cars. I'm not a teenager, so any non teenager looks silly driving one IMHO. I get that the kids may understand torque and intakes and wings and boost and decats and blah blah blah. The silly pitch black window tints and 'murdered out' emblems and ridiculous decals make the cars look, well, ridiculous.

But if we are going to sing the praises of a PURPOSE BUILT car, then everyone on this forum with more than two kids SHOULD own a minivan - particularly a Honda Odyssey or Toyota Sienna. As JWA pointed out on another thread, there is no other car on the road that is more 'PURPOSE BUILT' than a minivan. For a family, it is quite simply the most practical vehicle ever built - low stance, sliding door, tons of space for passengers and storage, spacious and comfortable for drivers, the required amenities for the kids, decent mileage and they are pretty bullet proof.

So, why doesn't every 'enthusiast' who values 'purpose built' vehicles own one as their kid hauler?

Because it's a f**kin' minivan! It's a 'dork wagon'. It's a 'soccer mom' car. It's a 'grocery getter'

See the point?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Nissan GTR = The top of the line ricer car. Do you not take that one seriously? And if you don't like the ricer stigma, I must also tell you that by definition, you are forced to say you do not like the GTR.

if not, watch this video.
 

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Nissan GTR = The top of the line ricer car. Do you not take that one seriously? And if you don't like the ricer stigma, I must also tell you that by definition, you are forced to say you do not like the GTR.

if not, watch this video.
World's Greatest Drag Race! - YouTube
No, I don't like the GTR. Impressive performance? Absolutely. Fantastic performance for money? Most definitely.

Ugly as hell? Fo sho.

And I'm not in the minority when I say that. As I've said before, a GTR looks like an Altima with a body kit. For the performance that car boasts, it's a shame that it's so pedestrian looking. The SEXY performance screams for SEXY lines. To me, it's a woman with an amazing body having a dog face. I just think cars of that ilk should LOOK sexy too.

I rode passenger with an instructor at a track day last week. He traded his Elise for a GTR. Fantastic performance (and a great driver), but my opinion wasn't changed. Car is an absolute beast...and looks like a beast.

As for 'ultimate ricer car' - I disagree. Ricer teenagers don't drive GTRs. They can't afford them. Ricer implies 'POSER'. As others noted, putting all the 'race/track' crap on cars that will never see the street. I've known of/seen a few GTRs and all were tracked. The GTR is a car and typically an owner that 'walks the walk'.

Sorry but a $9K Honda Civic with a fart can and some intake crap and decals is not.
 

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Ricer teenagers don't drive GTRs. They can't afford them. Ricer implies 'POSER'. As others noted, putting all the 'race/track' crap on cars that will never see the street. I've known of/seen a few GTRs and all were tracked. The GTR is a car and typically an owner that 'walks the walk'.

Sorry but a $9K Honda Civic with a fart can and some intake crap and decals is not.
So what is someone, at any age, to do if they have an interest in cars, like to work on them/tinker with them, enjoy driving them, be SEEN driving them to do with their interest if they cannot afford the $25K needed to get into a used Lotus?

If all you can afford is an inexpensive 'ricer' car with maybe some handling mods, a performance chip, a decat exhaust and the inevitable body kit....you should just not participate in the car hobby because what you can afford is somehow 'beneath' those who CAN afford to play at a higher level?

Only people with means should try to indulge their interest in automobiles?
 

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Nah, I think you are getting me wrong.

And before we go on, we are just dudes shooting the breeze over a 'virtual beer'. Just as if we were arguing football.

Anyhoo, back on topic.

I get where you are coming from. Gotta do what you gotta do and you can afford what you can afford.

However:

- What about the kid that has over $25K ('used Lotus money') into a Civic with a blue book value of $9K?

My point is about the dopey Fast and Furious wannabe crowds. Do you not look at those cars with their ridiculous decals and massive wings and auto zone fart cans and think they just look silly? I simply can't take them seriously. They aren't 'purpose built' cars like a GTR is. They most likely aren't cars that will see a track, but have all of this 'track' performance. They are just cruise around cars driven by silly teenagers.

That's all I'm saying.

But the mods you outline - all basically track mods - why would they do them - and then draw massive attention to them with a bajillion decals? Isn't that pretty much what a poser is?
 

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Discussion Starter #20
No, I don't like the GTR. Impressive performance? Absolutely. Fantastic performance for money? Most definitely.

Ugly as hell? Fo sho.

And I'm not in the minority when I say that. As I've said before, a GTR looks like an Altima with a body kit. For the performance that car boasts, it's a shame that it's so pedestrian looking. The SEXY performance screams for SEXY lines. To me, it's a woman with an amazing body having a dog face. I just think cars of that ilk should LOOK sexy too.

I rode passenger with an instructor at a track day last week. He traded his Elise for a GTR. Fantastic performance (and a great driver), but my opinion wasn't changed. Car is an absolute beast...and looks like a beast.

As for 'ultimate ricer car' - I disagree. Ricer teenagers don't drive GTRs. They can't afford them. Ricer implies 'POSER'. As others noted, putting all the 'race/track' crap on cars that will never see the street. I've known of/seen a few GTRs and all were tracked. The GTR is a car and typically an owner that 'walks the walk'.

Sorry but a $9K Honda Civic with a fart can and some intake crap and decals is not.
Rice burner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ricer, aka rice burner... "Rice burner is a pejorative describing Japanese-made—or by extension, Asian-made—motorcycles and automobiles. The term is often defined as offensive or racist stereotyping. In some cases users of the term assert that it is not offensive or racist, or else treat the term as a humorous, mild put-down rather than a racial slur."

I don't see where it describes wealth, but rather that it is solely based on Japanese/Asian car make... thus this makes it a racial slur.
 
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