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Most controvercial poll yet?!

  • 95%-plus (of cars are being delivered to deposit holders)

    Votes: 4 5.9%
  • 90%

    Votes: 16 23.5%
  • 85%

    Votes: 12 17.6%
  • 80%

    Votes: 13 19.1%
  • 70%

    Votes: 7 10.3%
  • 60%

    Votes: 4 5.9%
  • 50%

    Votes: 3 4.4%
  • 40%-or less (we're just a number and a dollar sign)

    Votes: 9 13.2%
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
At the end of the 2005 model year, what percentage of Elise's do YOU believe will be delivered to deposit holders?

Dave
 

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If you were asking what percentage of cars delivered have gone to deposit holders as of now I'd have said much lower, but I think that at least 80% of this year's run will end up in deposit holders' hands.
 

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I think 80 is too low, taking the year to end aug 05, I think that 10% (230 cars) on free market is still high, but considering the deposit holders that flip it is possible. But as cars are delivered the market dynamics will (and are) changing.
 

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babak said:
I think 80 is too low, taking the year to end aug 05, I think that 10% (230 cars) on free market is still high, but considering the deposit holders that flip it is possible. But as cars are delivered the market dynamics will (and are) changing.
That assumes that 2300 cars will be delivered as 2005's. You're probably right though. The more I think about it I agree that 90% is probably closer.
 

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If you mean, of the projected 2200-2400 cars made for the 2005 model year, how many will go to first deposit placers (by date deposited), I estimate 50%. If I'm wrong, I'll get a car :D . Oh, that hurts, because I thought at the time of my deposit (Jan04) that there was a real possibility of getting a 2005 Elise.

The poll question assumes that only deposit placers have a stake in the 2005 Elise, whereas the dealer may have in mind something different. Does anyone know how many deposits (by date) have been placed and how many orders have been placed by dealers for dealer's sale? Dave says there are 2500 deposits but some of these deposits will have been placed after projected dealer orders (which I assume are not reserved with a deposit).

Also, how many deposit placers would become a member of this site? How many members are there, Randy?

Only 241 members answered the question on the home page about their current status, which indicates that 57% (137) have placed an order or better. I am also assuming that pride in that fact gets more responses than those "hanging around." If there are 1000 members with deposits and presently only 13.7% have the Elise or have ordered the Elise in the first quarter, then unless the floodgates start opening soon, less than 60% of those 1000 members would get a 2005 Elise. It would be even more bleak if the membership were greater than 1000.

I hope I'm wrong.
 

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Think that the vast bulk will go to deposit simply because the number of people willing to pay over msrp is probably tiny.

I think a lot of the dealers did a disservice to the deposit holders by telling them what they wanted to hear, ie a person is the 125th person to place a deposit at a dealership, for them to tell the customer that'd give them a late 04 delivery is a pure flight of fantasy.

Chris
 

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This is a painful thread:(
Especially as it seems that quite a few of the deposits were made by "merchants" under aliases.
m
 

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To have expected Lotus to police the dealers on the deposit issue is nuts. How on earth would Lotus be able to tell if a list is populated with real deposit holders or dealers aunts uncles nieces nephews fathers daughters sons. This is just nuts.

Don't know why I let myself get roped into these discussions I guess because some of them are so far out of touch with reality it's just entertaining.

Chris
USUAL: Easy for me to say I've already got my car blah blah blah......
 

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FWIW, I was told by a dealership ( NOT my own dealer who has been great) that the sales staff "made up" names to pad their list when it came time for ordering.


And that was straight from the horses mouth.

I'm not sure what Lotus could do other than hire a private detective.....

Here's my only suggestion. Pay close attention here to those of us who got our cars on time and without hassle. Then If/when it comes time for YOU to purchase another car make sure you let the schmuck dealers know why you're going elsewhere and give your business to those who did right by people.
 

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X000000101 said:
I've considered whether Elisetalk is for pure entertainment, information, or possibly for greater goods...like holding questionable dealerships accountable...and offering Lotus buyers and potential buyers warnings of dealerships to steer clear of, etc. Past attempts to add some substance or teeth to Elisetalk have fallen on deaf ears, so I've had to assume it's just for fun...like watching The Daily Show as a source of news.
This is the second time I am mentioning this. Please consider posting somewhere else. Thanks. I am pretty easy going, but you so easily dismiss the efforts of many people here in thousands and thousands of posts that are informative, and that attempt to help each other out AND to influence Lotus and LCU. If you can't see that, then please quit posting.
 

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X000000101 said:
I've considered whether Elisetalk is for pure entertainment, information, or possibly for greater goods...like holding questionable dealerships accountable...and offering Lotus buyers and potential buyers warnings of dealerships to steer clear of, etc. Past attempts to add some substance or teeth to Elisetalk have fallen on deaf ears, so I've had to assume it's just for fun...like watching The Daily Show as a source of news.

I would assume any car manufacturer has power over its dealerships. If a dealership is shady or unfair to customers, it should lose its right to sell Lotus if it doesn't clean up its act. If a dealership is clearly screwing deposit-holders, it should be held accountable. But, if Elisetalk can't provide a source for consolidating this info..... (Lotus already has a group of private detectives in us).

Some dealers are taking advantage of the quick profit over the long term...which I assume the Elise is supposed to represent in the plans of Lotus. I thought the Elise was supposed to be the beginning of a new era for Lotus in the US...a long term commitment?

It's the long term that's being degraded...I believe.

Anyway...I digress...I'll get my Elise eventually and not worry about Lotus reputation, etc., as it doesn't appear to matter much in the whole scheme of things.

wakka wakka wakka! :)

X101
I believe that Lotus is an extremely reputable company who,like any other company, chooses dealers whom meet specific criteria. These criteria differ as companies differ, but generally, they contractually include things such as: commitment to display said product in such and such a predetermined location in said showroom, not directly competing with brand x. Dealer will provide x amount of floorspace for said product and display in such and such a manner. Dealer will not promote nor advertise "discounted sales" of said product and not compete outside of designated territory (if it's a franchise....which these are not). The language and methods of a manufacturer contractually ensuring that it's dealers represent it in it's intended manner vary as per contract between parties.

Lotus has NO control, nor does it have time for, being involved in such petty routines such as monitoring deposits from customers. They merely sell at invoice price (like all manufacturers) to dealers for distribution of its product.We are Not in Russia. We are in a free market.

But, what you and many other's expect of a manufacturer (Lotus) in controlling it's represented dealers ( especially new and first time dealers) is unrealistic bullsh*t.
You apparently feel that you have some axe to grind with someone (Elisetalk and Lotus) who owes you NOTHING.

Lotus is distributing it's product, I believe, in the best way possible. It's a unique and high quality product. It's dealers are not company stores. They are completely independent of Lotus and Proton.

I agree with Randy. Either get a handle on reality or stop posting. Your just stirring the pot!
 

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I might add........that if you ever do really do purchase an Elise, you will thank the day you were born that this site exists. There is a wealth of information as well as a solid group of extremely intelligent people on this site offering,at no charge, everything you could ever wish for.....from beginning buyers, to modifications for serious race enthusiasts. If a person can't appreciate nor understand the value of this site, then there is nothing more to say.


:confused:

That is what I will do......say no more.
 

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X000000101 said:
Randy,

Nothing personal...I'm easy going too...and appreciate your business venture.
If you referring to this as a business venture, I would be happy to show you the numbers. This loses money for me, which I happily do. I never approached this as a business venture. I run other forums... hardly any take advertising, they exist because I believe in the good a site like this can do, specially for car ownership.


I looked all over your site back in September and even posted a thread that was quickly deleted asking how does someone rescind membership? I think it's fair to be able to stop membership if someone wants.
That thread was never deleted. Here it still is-
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5927



I haven't dismissed a single post (as you're dismissing me)...I'm simply saying that there's lots of posts and threads, but no organized effort putting all this energy toward making one or two things better here or there...big things. I'm not even Lotus alumni like some of you and I don't like seeing what's going on...this isn't personal, as I guess you must believe it is, I'm just a person of principle.

I've always posted with thought and effort...and without jumping on any bandwagon or being provocative for provocation's sake. It's funny that I'm now considered a trouble-maker and ruffling feathers just for putting two and two together, and trying to set something right.

I don't plan on posting anywhere else, as I've never posted on any other message board. No worries, mate...

Dave
Dave, what you might intend and what you actually post then are two very different things. There are a number of people here that put a lot of effort into creating helpful threads. A lot of people. They (and I) work hard to find out stuff, see if something works, figure out how to take something apart, try a new product... all of that, so we can share this information. All of us are better for that.

That is one of the main goals of this forum. The other is to enable a sense of community, people can arrange meets, track events, that kind of thing. That is also happening.

A lesser goal is to try to keep everyone informed. I (and others) have really put in an effort to tell people what we know. As best as we can.

You are now looking at the forum relative to one other goal, to make some substantive changes at Lotus. Well, I doubt we will be that successful. But perhaps what you don't know... is how successful we (as a group) have been. How would you know? There have been threads created for the benefit of Lotus. We have people from Hethel and LCU reading our forum everyday. I might be nuts, but I would like to think there is some effect there.

But what does not work, is when you are operating from incorrect basis. In your case, for example, you claim LCU should have some control over the dealers. Not really. Nobody disagrees that some dealers are pretty bad and the situation is not optimum. Do you not think LCU knows that too? Lotus deals with LCU, that is their customer. LCU sells to the dealers, that is their customer. You have a company (LCU) with a handful of employees, being the middle man between Hethel and dealerships...and ultimately you. They are bound by legal contracts to Hethel and to the dealers.

Are they working to make things better? I think so. I hope so.

But I am not sure how else we can effectively make a change here, and belittling the content of the forum is not a step in the right direction.
 

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Dave<
I love the way you dismiss ALL the concrete threads and informaton on this board. Certainly we've got some pointless threads. But far outweighed by the usable info here and the fact we've managed to develop a community with Randy's hardwork. Elisetalk a business venture?, you probably also think Lotus makes 10k profit on each car.

You may be as easygoing as they come, communicating it doesn't seem to be strong point however. What in God's name does being a person of principle have to do with anything?

I can think of two other Elise US boards you can go to if you have problems with the way this one performs.

I remember the rescind membership thread you posted, didn't make any sense then, clear your cookies and don't log in. As you're not paying dues that's all that needs to be done.

Chris
Not dismissing you per se, just most of what you've posted I think.
 

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Dave, dunno if it's just me, but the way you convey your message is just a bit off, I can't explain, but it seems to come off as a bit patronizing and condescending, again just my interpretation and certainly could be wrong (have been before). I think Randy's pretty covered up, but if you're offering to create these databases you seek, perhaps he'd be interested??

As to holding dealers accountable for passing over deposit holders, I don't know what you expect elisetalk to do there, I'm a bit confused I guess.

As to de-registering, not sure your goal in that, perhaps to make it public so everyone knows, seems a bit easier just to stop logging on and clean out your cookies, no fuss no muss. As their are no dues here, not really a reason to have a formalized "deregistering ceremony"

I think etalk does a pretty good job of conveying information to people with cars, people waiting for cars, or people just curious, is everyone going to be happy with everything, seems a bit unlikely, especially with 2000 registered members.

Fortunately your thick skinned but I certainly hope I haven't offended you. I speak only for myself here.

Chris
 

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X000000101 said:
I've proposed an active database for #'s of cars delivered from each dealer, an active database of up to what deposit # has been delivered to each dealer, and most recently call to hold dealerships responsible for passing by deposit holders. Oh...evil me for making such selfish requests.
Ideas are always welcomed and appreciated, but you have to understand that EliseTalk is run by volunteers, with limited time available for implementing new features. The database you suggest is not trivial - the information that needs to be gathered is extensive and not something dealerships are likely to part with readily, and of course a UI would need to be written to access it. I agree that it'd be a very useful thing to have, but I don't see how it can be implemented without the support & participation of LCU and all the dealers. As for the last suggestion, regarding the way some dealers act, we've had several threads here bashing some dealers for their actions, and praising others - doesn't that provide this accountability you seek?
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Chris,

Yes, I'd be willing to put action behind my words. If authorized to figure out how to create/maintain such databases, I'd be willing to try...and to keep it simple/easy for both Elisetalk and members. It just sounds so cool to me to be able to log on and quickly check...dealer X has delivered up to deposit #15 now and 18 cars total; and dealer Y is on #7 now, and delivered only 7, etc. As a side-note, I've assumed there's resistance to such databases because they could open more cans of worms if we really document the overall situation.

Dave
 

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Dave, I think you mean well, but in spite of your statement that you have a thick skin, I don't think you do. And in my opinion, you make some assumptions that don't hold up. For example....
As a side-note, I've assumed there's resistance to such databases because they could open more cans of worms if we really document the overall situation.
I have also posted more than once that a accounting of dealer's allocations would be very cool.

The simple reason no such thing exists, is because I have very little time or expertise to deal with such a thing. I don't even have time right now to drive my car other than to the post office. Running this forum takes a bit of time. Trying to run my real business keeps me busy. And there is some very important product development I should be working on, that I keep having trouble having the time to do. That is it in a nutshell.

You posted in that other thread that you thought we should have a glossary of abbreviations and acronyms. I agreed with you and said I would get to it. A week later I merged that information into the FAQ. That did not take a lot of time. On the other hand, I don't understand why someone else (like you) just didn't do it. I am kinda busy.

If anyone has ideas AND time/know how to implement them, that would be great. Ideas alone are great too, but if it is only me doing it, it may get put on a long list of things to do.

Dave, I don't think it is just me being defensive. Take a look back at the wording of your posts.

And if you still want to unregister but lurk... go to the main forum page and click LOG OUT.
 
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