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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
As some of you know, we’ve been working hard integrating the TVS family of superchargers to 2ZZ Engine and our Lotus. The TVS blower is the new twin vortices blower from Eaton to replace the more archaic technology that most of us are running found in the MP-62. The results are simply fantastic!

These new blowers are VERY efficient and are even exceeding the efficiency envelope of the infamous Lysholm twin-screw! -eek- We’ve been experiencing performance on par and exceeding that of any air-to-air intercooled MP-62 supercharger system on the market with our NON-INTERCOOLED TVS system. The TVS is so efficient that charge temps and parasitic drag drop enough that at just 10psi boost, with a conservative timing map and properly rich AFRs, we’re seeing about 275wheel horse power and 175 wheel torque!:evil: :shift:

Comparing charge temps of our original setup with 10psi on a non-intercooled MP62 Katana base to our non intercooled TVS there is a drop by approximately 60+*F at peak load and full heat soaked conditions and over 100*F lower off load. Temperature recovery is much faster on this blower from my data logs. That means that when not under full load, temps drop faster and the unit cools faster, which mean an even greater *average* drop in temperature from the MP 62. Parasitic drag also drops with this unit. Another interesting note is that it’s whisper quiet as well…:cool:

Ultimately, we were able to get MP62 intercooled performance (better actually) without all the complex plumbing, weight, and throttle lag of the intercooled systems available today (both OEM and aftermarket).

Better news, yet!! This is the upgrade I think we were all waiting for (I certainly was)!:nanner: I worked very hard to ensure that this is a direct bolt on upgrade to the MP-62 based, non-intercooled, supercharger kits available today (BWR and Sector111’s Katana)! That means you won’t have to completely scrap all the hard earned dollars you spent on your first kit, as many of the bits are reused with our new system. You may even be able to sell your original MP62 to help recoup some cost.:D

We machine the TVS blower housing to fit the Lotus 2ZZ on our CNC mill, make custom pulleys, and adapter plates to fit the two manifold systems on the market today, and mill the bracketry from solid billet steel.

I'm obviously very excited about this. If the interest is there, we’ll work with existing vendors to bring this to the market as an upgrade and/or entirely new kit to the market.

TVS Information (from Eaton’s website): The Eaton Twin Vortices Series or Eaton TVS™ is a patented supercharger design that features twin four-lobe rotors, twisted 160 degrees. By comparison, the original Eaton supercharger features three lobes twisted 60 degrees. The fourth lobe and added twist, when combined with redesigned air inlet and outlet ports, creates a smoother, more efficient flow of air into the engine. In addition to improved overall efficiency, the Eaton TVS supercharger has improved noise and vibration characteristics as well. This is the same family of blower found in the new ZR-1 Corvette and CTS-V

The two dynos below are simply in two different scales. One shows the torque curve better and the other has "forced scaling", which how most dynos are posted... The CAD drawing is the alternator and blower support and the others are my engine bay...

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Here are some data logs along with another dyno pull. Conditions of the pulls are at the top of each sheet. Notice the TVS creates more boost with less heat. And notice the torque curves builds fast and builds longer...



 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
I think it's very reasonable to think Charlie would get the same HP as I did out of this system with a CA intake on a lesser modified car. I say this for a few reasons,

- Charlie's probably better at tuning these cars than I am. He has certainly done a lot more of them and pays more attention to the tuning detail than I do.
-I ran my Mp62 timing curve on the TVS, which is lower than what it could have been, which means I left some horse in the stable. All I did was tune fuel.
-I picked no or VERY little increase when I added the headers, that I can tell (they're Weapon R),
- Decat was present for all pulls and surelly worth no less than 5 hp, IMO.

That said, I did find a nice HP increase when I went from the stock air box to a simple KN on the end of a tube (nothing fancy there)... So dedcut points for that and add points for some of the above;)

Darth- The pulley sizing is totally different. Stock Katana runs about 7psi boost. I was running 10psi boost with a 3.2" pulley on the Katana type setup and was also running exactly 10psi with the TVS (see dyno plot descriptions). You see that with all the stuff on my car and Katana tune, I was running more HP than the normal 215ish that many are running. Then I switched to EFI and added a CA intake and jumped to 240ish, then went to TVS.

I'm quite certain this is *atleast* a 45-50whp increase over the base kits... It was more than that for me, but I have a few more goodies like the CA intake and decat...

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
TP-

"-I picked no or VERY little increase when I added the headers, that I can tell (they're Weapon R),"

Just to clarify: Did you do a back-to-back test? Stock headers and a good tune and then just switch headers and retune for them (leaving all else the same)?

Don
Don, almost. It wasn't the same day. I picked up maybe 3 hp with the headers and decat from just running decat and stock headers... It may be my tuning abilities wasn't able to extract the ponies from them... They do look pretty though:eek:

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
please make for S brackets....PLEASE
Will be working on that shortly... There's a couple other power freaks that are going to be running the TVS soon. Once they're up and running and I get the tow bars done, I'll start fiddling with the S manifolds (I've got a set on the bench)... With an IC and 550 injectors there's probably more power there than the stock internals can handle for a track car(certainly 300+whp 200+wtq--- The blower is good for about 24psi boost- so way more than most will ever use)...
But I really don't know just how far we can push the stock pistons for certain... The nice thing is that you can always de-tune if the power is too muchrotfl

Cheers,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Darth- I understand where you're coming from... Whatever the final package ends up looking like from a tuning standpoint, it you don't make atleast 260 safe whp with this, you can have it for free...;):D :D :D

That's not to sound arogant, as I'm obvious kidding a bit, it's just that I feel it's really that good of an upgrade... :up:

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
good work phil, but why are you only getting 225/148 with a base katana at 10PSI and no cat ? Am i missing something obvious.
CX- I don't think you're missing anything, that's just what she laid down... Both Darksol and I had similar figures with our 10psi pulleys on the same dyno- same day. AFRs were fine at the time- that was before we all discovered the longterm big no-no pulley swap issue... At anyrate, Dark's car always had about 5 ponies more than mine since he had better headers and TB, etc... Last we checked (dyno'd) his car, he still had about the same power with the 3.4 pulley as well... The second chart showing about 241hp was still with the 10psi pulley, but I pulled the stops out and made that power by tuning for the "CA" intake (read, KN filter on the end of a tube) and adding some timing on the lower half of the pull... Based on that observation, the stock intake is a bottleneck- it just has to be tuned for if changed. Not sure if the Cup intake will fix that with tuning or not (simply meaning, not sure if the Cup intake flows enough add'l air over stock)... Different discussion for a different thread though...

Well, 500 hp from it? What's the realistic max before it becomes inefficient?
I don't think so... Well maybe. I know it's got the air for 400whp with an IC and built engine and still be within it's efficient window- But I'd be surprised if 450 or 500 is...

I've maxed the 440s out doing the 175wtq. I should have 550s sitting on the step when I get home tonight. My plan is to go ahead and pulley down to raise the boost to 12-14psi. If the charge temps stay within reason, then I should be at or close to 300whp and 200wtq. That will probably be it for me until an IC comes into play- if ever... Charge temps will be the deciding factor here. I'll add boost until they get funky and call it good.

The engine is a stock OEM Toyota short block with the 9:1 Mahle drop ins, so I built it for higher boost. The 10psi exercise that I posted here was to see what the blower could do for the high compression motors, as we know 10psi at reasonable charge temps is "runnable" on 91 gas and high compression. In all good theory, the higher comp motors (stock) should push the same if not a bit more HP than I did, as you certainly don't need 9:1 to run 10psi boost (as I've demonstrated with my old M62 setup). Again, I ran the same timing with this TVS 10psi as I did with the M62 at 10psi. THe M62 was bolted up to my stock compression engine. That means that I could have ran more timing with the TVS due to the lower compression and lower charge temps...

In otherwords, in *general*, assuming the same fuel, timing advance is a function of cylinder pressure and RPM. I had less cylinder pressure with the colder air and lower static compression, so I should have been running more timing to get peak power... Only concern at this point is if the 440 injectors have enough juice to get more power... It's questionable as the 440s are -just- big enough... Two more high compression cars are getting the TVS soon and they will be good reference points as well...

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #48 ·
Thanks for update Phil. Are you stopping at 300 whp because of chassis or something else?

Bring it out to CA so you can run on some tracks with me :)
Would love to come out, it's only 20 hours or so drive!:eek: How about you bring your car to Kansas:D:D

The 300whp is just a guess... I'll add power until the charge temps start climbing out of control... The 4 lobe twin vortecies simply move air so much cooler/efficiently than the M62, that I'm hoping I can keep charge temps below 200F at even 12-14psi in 70 degree environment and fullly heat soaked (or atleast as much as I can get without being ont he track). If I can't hit 300 w/o an IC, then I can't- no big deal. The car is quite quick :cool: and very responsive as it sits with only 10psi boost...

The M62 would certainly have been in the 300*F charge temp arena at that 12-14 psi pressure (using my equipment), as it was pushing 240+ at just 10psi with ~70 degree temps. The TVS is only pushing 175 at 70 degree temps and it has less drag (drag: as advertised by the manufacturer, I have no way to substantiate this...)... Again, both in fully heat-soaked states. I'm only looking for a delta T here, as everyone's sensors seems to give different readings....

Thank goodness for a climate controlled dyno room. Winter is coming into the midwest! I'm relentless on the rollers. I drive the car hard before I get to the dyno and then do several pulls back to back without shutting the car down. I tune with the car idling every two pulls typically. Then pull a couple times and tune again. The guys at the dyno said I've got the second most pulls of all their customers, just short of the owner... That's hillarious... I think I'll get him knocked off his horse by next weekend;)

Back on topic, fortunately, I've got sensors all over the car and data logging ability, so I'll be able to see these temps very accurately as I strive for a track safe 300whp on a non-ICed TVS... I've got my glass half full, as I think it's doable without pushing it too hard:panic:

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #50 ·
As long as charge temperatures remain reasonable, should reliability be a problem?
You mean reliability of the engine? Should be. At 10psi, I know charge temps are fine and safe... I bet more safe temps than the M62 at 7 psi... I know Fred has like 370whp on his stock 2ZZ in his XP car, but he runs 112 race gas and auto crosses and the engine is still holding strong... I doubt our engines will last long at that power on the race track... But that's just speculation...

Point is that 275whp should be OK on the stock engine with a tune that doesn't detonate...


Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #55 ·

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Discussion Starter · #59 ·
This is excellent Phil. So glad to hear good news amidst all the BS going on in the world/market/etc....
...How does the stock 2ZZ hold up to the boost? Are gaskets, studs, or any other fortification items recommended? ....
...I'm not looking to do any bottom-end or piston work...
...Thanks Phil! This is going to be very, very good.
Thanks for the kind words Smoky:up: Stock 2ZZ has excellent head bolts and gakets- no problems there. Lower end and pistons should be fine. That said, the pistons are known to be the weak link in this engine...

Effective compression ratio is still just over 19:1 and that's still within the reasonable range for a high-tec, high output engine on pump gas. Several S's and even hotair M62 kits (like the one I used to have, Dave, Jim, etc) have built a pretty solid history of running this type of compression on this engine with pump gas. We'll be doing it with cooler charge temps now, however...


Phil, are you still running a stock fuel pump, or did you upgrade already?
Stock- Although I've got a slick litte trick that I'll post about later to give your fuel system a nice bump in output...

Wow this is great!

Any chance of figuring out a kit with Exige manifolds for the Elise?
Thanks Eric!
I guess. If I can shoe-horn it in such a way that it fits the Exige S, it will fit the Elise with those same manifolds...


You guys are wearing my fabbing fingers to the bone here!:eek:

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
Thanks for all the kind feedback everyone. I think it's fair to say that there's enough interest to make a BUNCH more of these kits. Here's what I'll do. I'll visit with the "usual suspects" about tunes, distribution, packaging, etc. I'm quite certain that details for distribution would be ironed out in Jan '09, which is surprisingly fast approaching with the holiday season already here :crazyeyes

In the meantime, there are two other forum members that are installing the kit soon as upgrades (one BWR and the other S111 Katana). Given the compression ratios involved, I'm actually expecting a little more HP/TQ from their cars given the higher static compression ratio of the stock engine.

Pricing is obviously still in the works. What I know is that the upgrade kit will be substantially cheaper than your original kit cost you. To be any more specific than that, would purely be speculation at this point. This is really very close to a ready to mass produce level just as it sits on my car, so there's not much else to iron out from the hardware side:coolnana:

I'm still open for questions about performance, hardware, etc... but I won't have any specific answers about price and how it will be delivered to the community until closer to January...

Thanks again! Projects like this are certainly fun and exciting! :up:

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #79 ·
so do you guys have a car that has a stock setup to do tests on?
Shay- Yes. Stock, as in unopened engine... Stock regarding no other mods? No, although that may come in time... On the otherhand, who is truly 100% stock and hopes to get big HP out of their car? Again, keep in mind that the lower comp on my engine will hurt power, not help at these very low boost levels. The lower static comp only helps with high boost levels... That said, I'm anxious to get it on some unopened engines as well. We'll have them installed before long:up:

Bruce- We have a jig for both BWR and Katana manifolds... You will be able to use the stock air box or cup air box... This is truly designed to be about a 50whp upgrade to the existing kits for a lot less money than buying a new kit:up:

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #104 ·
Phil, can you compare the down-low power vs the MP62?
Sure, it has a lot more... It has more torque everywhere and sooner. So down-low power (torque is up over the M62). See dyno below that will show how the TQ is up everywhere in the powerband vs the old M62... (similar dyno was also on the first post). It's pretty awesome how the car has so much power on tap. Roll-on the throttle in 6th gear at 60 feels about like a NA car does in 3rd gear at 60:crazyeyes It's VERY torquey and VERY smooth:shift:...

I have a newly installed BWR kit, what size injectors are needed for the increased power.
Since this blower makes more power, it also needs more fuel... Quite a lot more fuel. The dyno pulls I did were with 440s (Comes with Katana and BWR), however they were pretty well maxed out and well above 80% DC. More testing will indicate whether the injector change to 550s is 100% mandatory. If it is, 550s run about $350 and would be incorporated into the "kit"...

Phil,
You make a kit out of this and yet again, I'll be a customer.

No, I'm not taking out my turbo, this would be for another car.
Cool!:cool: What do you have in mind??????


Regarding availability--- following a bit more testing and discussions, this setup may be available as both an upgrade and a complete kit as early as January-eek-:coolnana:

Best,

Phil

PS- A note about the dyno, the smaller pull has a 3.2" pulley w/ M62 and subsequently probably has more umph than any of the off-the-shelf Katana or BWR kits. The point of the chart is to show that the TVS pull has considerably more power than even a modified and higher than stock output Katana kit in all segements of the power band...
 

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Discussion Starter · #107 ·
there's no way you'll be able to run that setup on 440cc injectors, you'll max out well before peak rpm, switching to the 550cc's will help, but you'll still need to upgrade the fuel delivery either with a swirl pot or higher volume fuel pump to make it into a kit , with the stock pump on the 550s, you still be well into the 90s

even though you're making less power than the mp62's with the 3.0 pulleys, you'll still be out of fuel in the 6000-7000 rpm range, especially with the higher boost.

CX- I tend to agree... in fact, you're most certainly correct... I'm pulling it off with 440s, but I'm really pushing the envelope for them. To keep the duty cycle within acceptable levels and still leave a little room, 550s are probably a certainty. I'm doing a fuel system test here shortly playing with the stock fuel pump, 440s and 550s, which is why I even mentioned the 440s as being a possibility---even if a remote one:eek:...

Cheers,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #109 ·
Good to know Charlie- I certainly haven't analyzed the tuning side of it to fruition by any means. I've not made time to get my own tune ironed out, as I've been busy on the hardware items. I made enough pulls to see that the car made more power with this setup after a good flogging on the street and dyno... That said, and to your point, it appeared that I was running out of gas at the end of the pulls, but I just haven't had time to investigate what DC I was pulling. I was probably running static...

My goal was simply to get the hardware sorted and see if the combination was promising on my car... Now that we know the combination is promising (and then some), it's time to see what other changes have to be done to the car like the fuel system to keep up with the tune and subsequent power... Your experience with the tuning here is obviously very helpful...

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #121 ·
Nobody should get discouraged about fuel delivery. It's just part of going fast. If it has to be upgraded, then it has to be upgraded... and that's not a bad thing...

Between now and the end of the year, we'll be trying different combinations on the fuel system to get the gas we all need with the easiest, least intrusive, and least expensive route possible...

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #123 ·
Since all the big hp kits are having to deal with fueling to some degree, this is probably a discussion best left to another thread...

CW- I'm not saying you're wrong by anymeans, but "hot wiring" a fuel pump is really common practice (for others, google it if unfamiliar) and is even advocated by most fuel pump manufacturers (including Walbro). Volume pics up with increased voltage with no real adverse effects to the pump... That said, I'm not saying hot wiring the pump is *the* fix for the car, but it's certainly worth exploring before condeming it, IMO. Every company from Kenne-bell to Lingenfelter swears by it... Again, since the turbo guys, future VF, and future TVS guys are all going to have to face this issue, we should probably start a new thread for it...:up:

Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #125 ·
Good point;) You're just going to have to feather-foot it till you get to the fun parts:)

Cheers,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter · #136 ·
Good Call, John!

I was nearly certain that it would come out through that access hole... A little dremeling is no big deal for sure.

Bav- There's no rattling that will come from there. That's a very rigid part of the car, that's also covered with carpet, wiring, etc... If you wanted to be extra careful, you could always just some double sided foam tape or a couple tabs of velcro to provide some cushion...

Thanks for the tip, John.


Best,

Phil


Installing a new fuel pump is relatively easy - I did mine in around two hours and don't consider myself a master mech. I didn't drop the tank, replaced the unit via the access port behind the drivers seat. It did involve dremeling the access port slightly larger. But I wanted easy access without dropping the tank. Before/After pics -
 
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