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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I have been researching different options on performance products. I found a supercharger built by blitz and a turbo kit by excess engineering. Not yet tested on an Elise. However, should not be a problem to be fitted. Both cost are around 5-6k both increase the power to around 250 hp.

I called Toyota Racing Development it turns out because of the high compression motor TRD doesn’t offer any products for this engine. However I was referred to someone who has lots of experience tuning Toyota motors. Basically, he informed me a stock 2zz engine is not the best Toyota motor. However it has good potential.

Basically the head could be ported and polished, a new valve train, springs, cams, rockers, lightweight flywheel. Could bring the HP around 260hp and rev to 9500 rpm.

This weakest link I was told was the rockers in the car. They are really bad and heavy and limit the motor from its potential.

I am definitely going to do the additional work.

Any thoughts?
 

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I *highly* doubt 260 hp w/o FI with any sort of reliability and on pump gas. Just ain't gonna happen.

And, any gains will most assuredly be 7k to redline, which can only be used regularly on a closed track.
 

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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
Three different people I spoke to said the Port and polishing the head with larger valves will increase the HP 30-40 HP and they will dyno to make certain.

His conservative estimate was 240-250HP If I could get 240 to the wheels I will be really happy. 1850 /240 HP =7.70

The higher redline shouldn’t be a problem either I mean s2000 redlines at 9,000.

I did not ask on as far as fuel but they did mention they might have to change the injectors and remap the ecu.

If they can’t guarantee results Excess-Engineering has small turbo kit that produces 260 HP reliably and they referred me to a Toyota Dealer in my area. If you purchase a new Toyota Celica add the turbo kit they honor the warranty, if they install it.

There is also supercharger option; my dealer said they would have a kit for it that will bring it around 240HP for around 5k.

I am bit confused why you don’t think it could run on regular fuel?
 

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Those of us who have been modifying normally aspirated cars know what it takes to take a 1.8 liter engine to over 200RWHP. It takes compression and huge breathing managed by a tuneable ECU. For an engine to make that power, it would need race gas and frequent rebuilds. It CAN be done, but it is not going to be streetable (ie power below 5K RPM is going to be crap). Chances are it will not pass any emissions tests either. Can some improvements be made? Sure. Just don't get your heart set on anything above 190 at the wheels normally aspirated.

Bolt-on forced induction with an eye on reliability should get you in the 210-230 range. Prices will range in the $3000+ range.

More than that will require taking the bottom end apart for lower compression. At that point, you will be looking at custom fuel systems, etc. If you go all out, you can make as much as 300+ at the wheels with a fairly reliable setup, but the first person to do this will easily spend $15,000 and leave a trail of broken engine parts.

Hopefully, the lessons will be somewhat easier given that the motor is already in use.

Ara
 

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Porting and polishing on a 1.8L street motor will not make the power they quote.

5 if your lucky, 10-15 with the planets are in alignment. I will personally pay the cost for the dyno runs if headwork and valvetrain massaging gets over 15 hp.

I have an M3 as a daily driver, and my last car was an S2000. I've toyed with both and know firsthand the power quotes from the aftermarket are fluff. I've dynoed every modification I've made.

The power they are quoting can only be had from an un-optimized, under tuned V8, not from a strung-out japanese power plant.

On the other hand, I bet you'll get half their quoted numbers if you raise the compression to 104 octane levels.

I'm no expert, but I'd not pay one dolla until dynos were shown to back up their claims.
 

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happytrails said:
Basically, he informed me a stock 2zz engine is not the best Toyota motor. However it has good potential.
"Best" for tuning, or "best" for day-to-day driving and reliablity? Is there a better engine we should be lusting over (that would fit in the Elise's engine bay?)

Steve
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I was told the best possible engine would have been to put a Honda type R powerplant.

I do know for a fact Toyota of Camel back has a turbo kit that reliably produces 250 HP for $5,000.00 the only question is will it fit in an Elise engine compartment. Also Scottsdale Lotus is working on a supercharger.

Either way I am going for more power. If I wanted reliabilty I would buy a BMW.
 

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happytrails said:
If I wanted reliabilty I would buy a BMW.
HA!

Of the 32 most reliable vehicles, 31 were from Japanese manufacturers, Consumer Reports said
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4482167/

For the first time in a quarter century, U.S. carmakers can say they make more reliable cars than their competitors in Europe. Asian manufacturers still hold top bragging rights, however.
http://www.jsonline.com/wheels/peak/mar04/213168.asp?format=print

although the consumer reports surveys may not be statistically accurate. http://www.allpar.com/cr.html
 

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Re: Re: Performance- Natural Aspiration

slacy said:
Is there a better engine we should be lusting over (that would fit in the Elise's engine bay?)
I'm with happytrails. The Elise would be unbeatable with a Honda K20A/A2 motor. If Prototype Racing's numbers are to be trusted (let's not get into that discussion here), 0-60 comes up in 4 sec and 100 comes up in 9. Add to that Honda reliability (not that Toyota reliability is any worse), and you've got one really nice package.

Before I sunk over $10K in modding the 2ZZ, I'd do a swap with a K20 through prototype.
 

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Seems as if you guys are into all that horsepower, a vette would suit you better than an elise. I just couldnt imagine spending 40k on a car only to destroy its powertrain... To each his own though. Not that I don't wish you luck on your projects, because I do. I would love to see a 250 hp elise running around. 190 is plenty for me, but then again, I dont race. ...yet.

-Whit
 

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Originally posted by BrianK
I'm with happytrails. The Elise would be unbeatable with a Honda K20A/A2 motor. If Prototype Racing's numbers are to be trusted (let's not get into that discussion here), 0-60 comes up in 4 sec and 100 comes up in 9. Add to that Honda reliability (not that Toyota reliability is any worse), and you've got one really nice package.
on top of this, you would get the 111s exhaust piping. I don't know how that would work with the 111r, but I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't mind having single exhaust tips on either side through the grill above the diffuser.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
I normally would not tear down a drive train. However I had friend I grew up with that his father was engine builder for Penske racing team. I remeber his father telling me that every car he purchases he tears down the motor and rebuilds it. His garage with littered with exotics and indy cars. If this car was closer to 240 I wouldn't touch it but 189 with less 160 going to the wheels it just wont cut it for me.

another builder suggested to do the swap as well.
 

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Happytrails, Which Elise model have you driven extensively enough to be basing your assesment that 160 hp in the Elise weight and handling and a sub 5 sec 0-60 time "is just not going to cut it" ?
Giles.
 

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waelsie,
you'll find very few of the guys already talking about the power of the stock elise not cutting have even driven one yet. I can safely say, none have driven the US spec car yet.

HP has always been a hangup with a lot of us Americans. We've discussed the topic ad nauseum here and has made no impact. to each his own, but I reserve the right to laugh at you guys as you moan and groan about all the probs you're having with your "modded" cars while I just motor on with my bone stock elise.

I've been trying to for two odd years that a person ought to actually experience the car before deciding "it won't cut it" Wasting my breath, now I just sit back and laugh.

:D
Chris
 

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Celicas have been getting around 185fwhp with bolt on type modifications. There are a few people who have built their heads, with valves and porting, but none that have had any conclusive dynos. People are getting good gains with Cold air intakes and using the Apex's Power FC ECU to tune the A/F and cam and ignition timing. So far no one has made any non-regrind cams (other than a set of 5 that TRD developed for its race engine shown at the 2001 Long Beaach Grand Prix) for the 2ZZ-GE. I have heard rumors that an English company ahs tried researching it though. The TRD motor had new valves, head, retainers, valve springs, a long tube race exhaust, and higher compression pistons. It made somewhere around 230whp according to TRDs publications.

There are gains to be made n the 2zz-ge engine, but ther eis no use speculating on what to change on the Elise until someone can find out what the difference between the Lotus 2zz and the Toyota 2zz is. I'm interested in seeing the header design for the Lotus engine.

There are a few turbocahrger kits for the Celica and Matrix based 2zz-ge. The XS Engineering one, and the Stafford Fabrications kit. Both make rather good power (about 240-260whp). The Stafford kit uses the stock ECU and runs with a piggy back type system(I'm not sure of all the details of these, but go look on www.newcelica.org )as well as sotkc injectors and fuel pump. The XS uses a Power FC ECU. The XS retails for around 4-5k dollars and the Stafford is about 3500-4000 dollars. The limit on horsepower is first the high compression, than the transmission. There have been several people who have destroyed their transmission (R&P on one, and sheard gears on another) running around 260fwhp.
 

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Also, I would suggest that adding huge amounts of HP is the last thing a modder should do. The first thing is to make sure the chassis and brakes are upgraded or capable of handling the large amounts of power added. But it seems like everyone wants to add 50% more power first.

It's possible to make a potentially dangerous monstrosity even if you could add the power. Especially when you put weight distribution (a touchy subject) into play on a mid-engined car.

Of course it is far from impossible, but it just doesn't seem like many people take the above factors into consideration when talking about ultra high HP/lb ratios.

I admit I too was into massive HP numbers myself, but in the past few years, with the incredible HP wars going on (a Mercedes with 700 ft/lb of torque? Quad-turbo V12?), unless I wanted to plunk down $90-100K every 2-3 years, I would never be able to keep up. The ante keeps getting raised big-time.

And I think cars are reaching, if they haven't already reached, a point where huge HP numbers are almost unusable on the street. I've heard rumors that the big Mercedes models would be very difficult to handle without their sophisticated electronic traction and stability control. With those turned off, they handle like dogs because the suspension geometry is extremely conservative to protect the driver from mishap.

My hat's off to the pioneers to explore how to make big power on the Elise and keep the handling. But for me, I'll have to drive the car first, and only if I'm drag-racing (or racing period, but not for track days) would I want huge power. I may only be disappointed if the low-end pull of the Elise is lacking, I could see myself wanting more torque down low. But this remains to be seen...




DLY
 

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Having a fair amount of track time in a number of cars, and having added a bunch of mods, only to remove them due to reliability and other tradeoffs like NVH, I'll leave the motor alone.

However, I would like the Elise to go around a track as good as the Exige. If anything gets changed out on my car, it will be in the quest for Exige performance.
 

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Zvezdah1 wrote "I reserve the right to laugh at you guys as you moan and groan about all the probs you're having with your "modded" cars while I just motor on with my bone stock elise. "
I am afraid you are preaching to the converted Chris. My engine remains stock standard for the very reason you mention. I did nothing to my car for two years, just watching as tuned K series had probems all around me. In that time I just worked on me - doing driving courses ! I also found that apart from on the long straights, I was not getting left behind - in fact, I was even managing to pass a few of them in the twisties. :D And only then I upgraded items a) that I had researched thoroughly and b) that had worn out. The exhaust and airfilter were first (needed the right aural effect !), then before I shipped my car back to Aus from UK I had Hethel fit LSS suspension (because I found the standard suspension wallowed / yawed too much on very high speed corners on tracks), and I had a factory oil cooler fitted to prepare for the increased temps in Aus, fitted an 82 degree thermo instead of the standard, and lastly had braided brake hoses fitted in order to reduce brake sponginess when on tight tracks. Result is a car with longevity (no problems yet touch wood) and superb handling that is everything I need. And because the work was done at Hethel, I also have a nice little official chassis plate stating that the work on my car was done by Lotus Works at Hethel - a nice finishing touch to a perfect car.
Sorry to dissapoint you but it wasn't me moaning or groaning !
Maybe now you can understand why I was asking what experience happytrails had with Elises that made him want more power. I agree with you that most people will get more speed out of driver tuning than they will out of engine tuning - at least initially !!
Giles.
 
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