This is interesting reading but a little confusing. Stick with it and in the end it should be clear.
My letter to Mpls Lotus asking only for a refund on the ECU dump: 3/17/08
John Huser
I am requesting a refund on repair order #jacs156659. Although I do appreciate the effort to get your printer working I feel as a Lotus Dealer you should have that operational at all times. The data I was seeking was erased several weeks earlier when your technician reflashed my computer system. That was on repair order #jacs155918. I am very disturbed that this data was not saved prior to reflashing the ecu but am not surprised because it seems like Mr. Williamson barely knows how to download the data. When I was in for the data dump and saw that the data was incomplete and asked Mr. Williamson why the data was incomplete, his response was he did not know, maybe it gets erased when you disconnect the battery for an extended period. This is totally false and I think as a certified Lotus technician he should have known that the data was lost due to the reflash. The data I paid for was information on the car for my drive home from your dealership on 2/27/05 and my return to your dealership on 3/14/08.This information is useless to me or anyone else.
The person that was interested in purchasing my car subject to seeing the data has passed on my car. Hunting Ridge Motors, the dealer in his home area can’t understand why the data was erased prior to saving it for me. I also cannot understand.
Upon leaving your dealership it was like salt was poured on my wound when my car was brought up to me freshly washed and dripping wet. I almost lost it right there. I instructed the driver upon entering your dealership to not wash my car and he told me that he had passed this information on to Mr. Palmer. This car has only been hand washed as directed by Lotus since I brought it home from your dealership on 3/29/05. The Starshield is lifting on a few of the edges and I suspect this may have something to do with your wash. On Page 95 of my Lotus Elise Manual it states, “use of automatic car washes will invalidate the terms of the limited warranty.”
I feel I am being fair with my request and I feel you should agree with me. If this is not the case call me at 651 470 3037 and we can discuss this situation further.
Dave Kennedy
The return phone call from Mr. Huser was interesting. At the end of our conversation when it was apparent that I was not going to get my $120.00 back I asked Mr. Huser if it was not worth $120.00 to make me go away and his response was that he believed I was going away anyway. If he reads this I want him to know how wrong he was!
Read these letters closely and the situation will unfold. Am I crazy or do you believe I have been mistreated?
From: Dave Simkin
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 2:04 AM
To: Sandra Mothershed
Cc: Warranty email
Subject: RE: Minneapolis customer
Sandra:
I spoke with Paul Palin at Downtown Lotus and he sent me the repair orders for the vehicle in question. I have attached the repair orders along with a copy of the bulletin for the re-flash of the ECM. Apparently the customer requested a download from the dealer and they told him correctly that it would not be covered under warranty and he would have to pay for it. He declined the download and printout at that time; (I have attached the bulletin which does not instruct to do a download prior to doing the re-flash). He also asked for any open bulletins and campaigns to be performed at this time, which they were. One of the campaigns performed was the re-flash which unfortunately deletes prior history. The only concern with the transmission was difficulty shifting into 5th gear (and no mention of a noise) and the dealer was unable to duplicate the concern. This dealer visit was on February 25th. The customer then returned to the dealership on March 14th and agreed to pay for a printout. On the repair order for the March visit it is noted that the customer was waiting and not to wash the car. The fact that the Star Shield is peeling is a matter to be taken up with Star Shield as they cover the warranty on that, not us. From a warranty standpoint the dealer did nothing wrong, from a customer service standpoint they could have handled it a bit different and I will talk to them about that but unfortunately this does not change the fact that the customer did not get a full print out.
Dave
David J. Simkin
Field Service Engineer
Lotus Cars USA, Inc.
Here is my response:
Sandra,
Following is a copy of my response to Mr. Simkins e mail.
Dave,
Some of the information you have received from Downtown Lotus is
not true.
When I declined to pay for an ecu dump on my first visit, I was never
told that this is my last chance to collect the data. I was told they
could perform the ecu dump but did not have the capability to print it.
They would be glad to charge me $120.00 for the ecu dump but could not
and would not provide me with a printout. I was the one who initially
requested the ecu dump and had no knowledge that if they needed to
reflash the computer we would lose all of the data. I declined the ecu
dump at that time because of the cost and I could not get a copy of this
information. I would have been paying $120.00 for information that was
apparently sent to a black hole somewhere. That made no sense to me at
all. There was no mention of a last chance to get this data. They should
have let me know prior to erasing this data. How am I supposed to know
this information? You mention that it states in the bulletin tha t
there will not be a download prior to a reflash. I see nowhere in this
bulletin that there will not be a download and the history will be
erased. If it is there and I am missing it, will you tell me when this
bulletin was mailed to me, because I never received it? It was later
after the first visit and several phone calls that I was able to enlist
the help of Ralph Essman(sales) who brought the situation to the attention of
Mike Jensen(General Manager) . Apparently Mike was able to convince the
service department to spend the money and get the printer fixed. I then
arranged to have the data dump. It took four hours of waiting for them to
successfully retrieve 50 minutes of data from my car. I had the car sold
subject to seeing this data and due to the fact your dealer erased the
data without telling me the sale has fallen through.
I have many other issues with Downtown Lotus. They have a
complete lack of knowledge about the Lotus Elise. When I brought the car
in for service they had no idea there was an a/c campaign or an issue
with the headlight embellisher ring. My buyer tried to talk them into
replacing the headlight embellisher ring and was told they knew nothing
about this. He contacted Hunting Ridge Motors in his home area and was
told by them not to worry about it that they would take care of it when
he got the car home even if it was a few days out of warranty.(now that
is customer service). Also when I brought the car in for them to perform
the updates and warranty repairs why was I quoted $504.00 for inspection
time on the warranty repairs? When I questioned this I was told Lotus
will pay for repairs but will not pay for time in diagnosing problems.
Of the $504.00 only $120.00 was for the ecu dump. So they were trying to
charge me $384.00 on the repair order and also charge you for the warra
nty repair. When I did get my data dump with about 50 minutes of history
on it (From their dealership to my home and back again) I questioned the
technician, Mr. Williamson, on why the data was gone and his response
was that he did not know, maybe it is erased when you disconnect the
battery for an extended time.
This sounds like a certified technician that may have slept through the
certification process.
Initially I was told the printer that is needed for the data dump
was broken and I was told that they had no way of retrieving the
information for me. Later, after Mr .Jensen had spoken to the service
department, I was told that they would attempt to fix the printer but
since it would be used only for me, they were hesitant to to invest
money in the printer but they would. I find this hard to understand
since a data dump is required for every Elise at a thousand miles.
This was for my second visit. Am I the only owner who will request this
info? If the information is not required to be printed, how does Lotus
receive the thousand mile information that they require? If you have the
information in a computer at Lotus headquarters, couldn't I have access
to this information too?
In 2005 when I had my first one thousand mile data dump (repair order
number JACS 111881) I was told minutes after the download that the
information was already sent to Lotus and I could not have a copy o f it
. I found this suspicious at the time and I question whether it was
printed. I have a copy of the the 1000 mile checklist and they had
checked that they had printed a "Lotus Scan Engine History Report and
return to Lotus". It says it was printed and yet I was denied a copy.
Downtown Lotus erased the history of my car without ever telling me
this was going to be done and without asking me if I would then like a
ucu dump prior to performing the reflash. There are definitely damages
here. The amounts are yet to be determined. As far as the car wash, it
states on page 95 of my owners
manual that using an automatic car wash invalidates the warranty. As
for the
problem with the Starshield I suspect that Starshield is going to say
that the lifting of their material is due to the automatic wash and blow
dryer. As far as charging both me and Lotus for warranty repairs, there
is no logical explanation for that other than greed. There are many
other issues that I could bring up but I hope to not go there.
I request a meeting with Lotus Cars USA, Downtown Lotus, and
myself to discuss these issues. I am a very reasonable person and am
very willing to discuss a remedy to this dilemma. If you or Downtown
Lotus are unwilling to arrange this I am left with no choice and will
fully pursue this matter in another venue.
Dave Kennedy
Their response:
Mr. Kennedy:
Are there any limited warranty issues you need to discuss with Lotus
Cars USA? It appears that all service bulletins applicable to your car
have been performed and your other concerns have been addressed. The
ecu data print, while good supplementary information, is but one
indication of how a car has been driven and treated. Other more
substantial indicators would include maintenance history, tire and brake
wear, general appearance, and of course the test drive. We will review
the printout information from time to time on a specific car when
presented with a specific circumstance, but we also do not always have
this information to go by and must rely on the other indicators I have
mentioned.
Unfortunately the history is erased with any reflash. At first glance
of your warranty history I notice that it is a 3 year old car with a bit
over 9,000 miles. If all other indicators mentioned were satisfactory I
would say this was a very well treated car and I would see little need
for a printout prior to sale. Again, it may be good supplementary
information in support of the other factors but if your other factors
are solid it would not or should not interfere with the sale of the car.
The fact is that thousands of Elise's have had reflashes over the past
several years. The engine history is not designed or promoted as a sales
tool, but an internal working document of the vehicle's performance over
a period of time. There were no issues of concern with your vehicle's
performance over a period of time, therefore no reason for us to request
a download of this data. Unfortunately your request to the dealer for
the printout and to have any applicable service bulletins carried out
overlapped.
You say that you would like to discuss a "remedy to this dilemma" and in
another email I see that you indicate you have been damaged financially.
If the Starshield is your concern, please let me know if Starshield
denies warranty coverage based upon the car going through the dealer's
automatic car wash; the dealers' wash is not high pressure and the
reason for the paragraph in the handbook is for paint and the soft top.
Starshield has no such restriction in their warranty; they do, however,
state to never use a pressure washer, which does not apply in this case.
If you are saying that you were damaged because the car did not sell to
the individual you were negotiating with due to the lack of a printout,
I'm not sure how this would involve Lotus Cars USA. While the printout
would help to avoid any future warranty restriction issues due to over
revs or standing starts, the lack of a printout would do the same thing,
if the car were still under the 3/36 limited warranty.
Please let me know if I can answer any other questions.
Best regards,
Rick MacLeish
Director, Service and Parts Operations
Lotus Cars USA, Inc.
(770) 476-6552
Now, what do you all think of this situation?
My letter to Mpls Lotus asking only for a refund on the ECU dump: 3/17/08
John Huser
I am requesting a refund on repair order #jacs156659. Although I do appreciate the effort to get your printer working I feel as a Lotus Dealer you should have that operational at all times. The data I was seeking was erased several weeks earlier when your technician reflashed my computer system. That was on repair order #jacs155918. I am very disturbed that this data was not saved prior to reflashing the ecu but am not surprised because it seems like Mr. Williamson barely knows how to download the data. When I was in for the data dump and saw that the data was incomplete and asked Mr. Williamson why the data was incomplete, his response was he did not know, maybe it gets erased when you disconnect the battery for an extended period. This is totally false and I think as a certified Lotus technician he should have known that the data was lost due to the reflash. The data I paid for was information on the car for my drive home from your dealership on 2/27/05 and my return to your dealership on 3/14/08.This information is useless to me or anyone else.
The person that was interested in purchasing my car subject to seeing the data has passed on my car. Hunting Ridge Motors, the dealer in his home area can’t understand why the data was erased prior to saving it for me. I also cannot understand.
Upon leaving your dealership it was like salt was poured on my wound when my car was brought up to me freshly washed and dripping wet. I almost lost it right there. I instructed the driver upon entering your dealership to not wash my car and he told me that he had passed this information on to Mr. Palmer. This car has only been hand washed as directed by Lotus since I brought it home from your dealership on 3/29/05. The Starshield is lifting on a few of the edges and I suspect this may have something to do with your wash. On Page 95 of my Lotus Elise Manual it states, “use of automatic car washes will invalidate the terms of the limited warranty.”
I feel I am being fair with my request and I feel you should agree with me. If this is not the case call me at 651 470 3037 and we can discuss this situation further.
Dave Kennedy
The return phone call from Mr. Huser was interesting. At the end of our conversation when it was apparent that I was not going to get my $120.00 back I asked Mr. Huser if it was not worth $120.00 to make me go away and his response was that he believed I was going away anyway. If he reads this I want him to know how wrong he was!
Read these letters closely and the situation will unfold. Am I crazy or do you believe I have been mistreated?
From: Dave Simkin
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2008 2:04 AM
To: Sandra Mothershed
Cc: Warranty email
Subject: RE: Minneapolis customer
Sandra:
I spoke with Paul Palin at Downtown Lotus and he sent me the repair orders for the vehicle in question. I have attached the repair orders along with a copy of the bulletin for the re-flash of the ECM. Apparently the customer requested a download from the dealer and they told him correctly that it would not be covered under warranty and he would have to pay for it. He declined the download and printout at that time; (I have attached the bulletin which does not instruct to do a download prior to doing the re-flash). He also asked for any open bulletins and campaigns to be performed at this time, which they were. One of the campaigns performed was the re-flash which unfortunately deletes prior history. The only concern with the transmission was difficulty shifting into 5th gear (and no mention of a noise) and the dealer was unable to duplicate the concern. This dealer visit was on February 25th. The customer then returned to the dealership on March 14th and agreed to pay for a printout. On the repair order for the March visit it is noted that the customer was waiting and not to wash the car. The fact that the Star Shield is peeling is a matter to be taken up with Star Shield as they cover the warranty on that, not us. From a warranty standpoint the dealer did nothing wrong, from a customer service standpoint they could have handled it a bit different and I will talk to them about that but unfortunately this does not change the fact that the customer did not get a full print out.
Dave
David J. Simkin
Field Service Engineer
Lotus Cars USA, Inc.
Here is my response:
Sandra,
Following is a copy of my response to Mr. Simkins e mail.
Dave,
Some of the information you have received from Downtown Lotus is
not true.
When I declined to pay for an ecu dump on my first visit, I was never
told that this is my last chance to collect the data. I was told they
could perform the ecu dump but did not have the capability to print it.
They would be glad to charge me $120.00 for the ecu dump but could not
and would not provide me with a printout. I was the one who initially
requested the ecu dump and had no knowledge that if they needed to
reflash the computer we would lose all of the data. I declined the ecu
dump at that time because of the cost and I could not get a copy of this
information. I would have been paying $120.00 for information that was
apparently sent to a black hole somewhere. That made no sense to me at
all. There was no mention of a last chance to get this data. They should
have let me know prior to erasing this data. How am I supposed to know
this information? You mention that it states in the bulletin tha t
there will not be a download prior to a reflash. I see nowhere in this
bulletin that there will not be a download and the history will be
erased. If it is there and I am missing it, will you tell me when this
bulletin was mailed to me, because I never received it? It was later
after the first visit and several phone calls that I was able to enlist
the help of Ralph Essman(sales) who brought the situation to the attention of
Mike Jensen(General Manager) . Apparently Mike was able to convince the
service department to spend the money and get the printer fixed. I then
arranged to have the data dump. It took four hours of waiting for them to
successfully retrieve 50 minutes of data from my car. I had the car sold
subject to seeing this data and due to the fact your dealer erased the
data without telling me the sale has fallen through.
I have many other issues with Downtown Lotus. They have a
complete lack of knowledge about the Lotus Elise. When I brought the car
in for service they had no idea there was an a/c campaign or an issue
with the headlight embellisher ring. My buyer tried to talk them into
replacing the headlight embellisher ring and was told they knew nothing
about this. He contacted Hunting Ridge Motors in his home area and was
told by them not to worry about it that they would take care of it when
he got the car home even if it was a few days out of warranty.(now that
is customer service). Also when I brought the car in for them to perform
the updates and warranty repairs why was I quoted $504.00 for inspection
time on the warranty repairs? When I questioned this I was told Lotus
will pay for repairs but will not pay for time in diagnosing problems.
Of the $504.00 only $120.00 was for the ecu dump. So they were trying to
charge me $384.00 on the repair order and also charge you for the warra
nty repair. When I did get my data dump with about 50 minutes of history
on it (From their dealership to my home and back again) I questioned the
technician, Mr. Williamson, on why the data was gone and his response
was that he did not know, maybe it is erased when you disconnect the
battery for an extended time.
This sounds like a certified technician that may have slept through the
certification process.
Initially I was told the printer that is needed for the data dump
was broken and I was told that they had no way of retrieving the
information for me. Later, after Mr .Jensen had spoken to the service
department, I was told that they would attempt to fix the printer but
since it would be used only for me, they were hesitant to to invest
money in the printer but they would. I find this hard to understand
since a data dump is required for every Elise at a thousand miles.
This was for my second visit. Am I the only owner who will request this
info? If the information is not required to be printed, how does Lotus
receive the thousand mile information that they require? If you have the
information in a computer at Lotus headquarters, couldn't I have access
to this information too?
In 2005 when I had my first one thousand mile data dump (repair order
number JACS 111881) I was told minutes after the download that the
information was already sent to Lotus and I could not have a copy o f it
. I found this suspicious at the time and I question whether it was
printed. I have a copy of the the 1000 mile checklist and they had
checked that they had printed a "Lotus Scan Engine History Report and
return to Lotus". It says it was printed and yet I was denied a copy.
Downtown Lotus erased the history of my car without ever telling me
this was going to be done and without asking me if I would then like a
ucu dump prior to performing the reflash. There are definitely damages
here. The amounts are yet to be determined. As far as the car wash, it
states on page 95 of my owners
manual that using an automatic car wash invalidates the warranty. As
for the
problem with the Starshield I suspect that Starshield is going to say
that the lifting of their material is due to the automatic wash and blow
dryer. As far as charging both me and Lotus for warranty repairs, there
is no logical explanation for that other than greed. There are many
other issues that I could bring up but I hope to not go there.
I request a meeting with Lotus Cars USA, Downtown Lotus, and
myself to discuss these issues. I am a very reasonable person and am
very willing to discuss a remedy to this dilemma. If you or Downtown
Lotus are unwilling to arrange this I am left with no choice and will
fully pursue this matter in another venue.
Dave Kennedy
Their response:
Mr. Kennedy:
Are there any limited warranty issues you need to discuss with Lotus
Cars USA? It appears that all service bulletins applicable to your car
have been performed and your other concerns have been addressed. The
ecu data print, while good supplementary information, is but one
indication of how a car has been driven and treated. Other more
substantial indicators would include maintenance history, tire and brake
wear, general appearance, and of course the test drive. We will review
the printout information from time to time on a specific car when
presented with a specific circumstance, but we also do not always have
this information to go by and must rely on the other indicators I have
mentioned.
Unfortunately the history is erased with any reflash. At first glance
of your warranty history I notice that it is a 3 year old car with a bit
over 9,000 miles. If all other indicators mentioned were satisfactory I
would say this was a very well treated car and I would see little need
for a printout prior to sale. Again, it may be good supplementary
information in support of the other factors but if your other factors
are solid it would not or should not interfere with the sale of the car.
The fact is that thousands of Elise's have had reflashes over the past
several years. The engine history is not designed or promoted as a sales
tool, but an internal working document of the vehicle's performance over
a period of time. There were no issues of concern with your vehicle's
performance over a period of time, therefore no reason for us to request
a download of this data. Unfortunately your request to the dealer for
the printout and to have any applicable service bulletins carried out
overlapped.
You say that you would like to discuss a "remedy to this dilemma" and in
another email I see that you indicate you have been damaged financially.
If the Starshield is your concern, please let me know if Starshield
denies warranty coverage based upon the car going through the dealer's
automatic car wash; the dealers' wash is not high pressure and the
reason for the paragraph in the handbook is for paint and the soft top.
Starshield has no such restriction in their warranty; they do, however,
state to never use a pressure washer, which does not apply in this case.
If you are saying that you were damaged because the car did not sell to
the individual you were negotiating with due to the lack of a printout,
I'm not sure how this would involve Lotus Cars USA. While the printout
would help to avoid any future warranty restriction issues due to over
revs or standing starts, the lack of a printout would do the same thing,
if the car were still under the 3/36 limited warranty.
Please let me know if I can answer any other questions.
Best regards,
Rick MacLeish
Director, Service and Parts Operations
Lotus Cars USA, Inc.
(770) 476-6552
Now, what do you all think of this situation?