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I'm also using the R4-S on the MR2. Let us know how you like them and how they compared to the stock pads.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
$160 total all four corners>>

zvezdah1 said:
Michael, how much did they cost front and back?
Chris
But I suspect if a group purchase was set up the price would drop...and no I am not suggesting I set this up at this point..[edit: that sounded harsh..did not mean it that way...just did not want to mislead anyone that I could take on a group purchase exercise...]
 

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I just wanted to chime in to say that I love these pads. Granted, I've not tried a whole lot, but they are the best I've used - nice and bitey, heat up quick, not much dust or noise. :) That said, I've never used them on an Elise.
 

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YELOTUS said:
came day early...but in case you are interested in the pad number and size/shape.
When fitted you may notice some clunking/rattling of the pads in the front caliphers. Most aftermarket pad backing plates are just a fraction smaller than the original ones.

If it bothers you (it's not a problem in itself, but some people don't like it) the usual fix is to stick a thin strip of neoprene or rubber in the bottom of the calipher, so the pad is always pushed 'upward' and secured in the calipher. (the standard retaining spring itself is not enough in most cases)

Performance Friction were the only manufacturer I takled to who specifically mentioned this point (of which I was already aware) and have a slightly bigger backing plate version of the front design for this purpose.

Bye, Arno.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Arno...thanks for the info...

I will compare the Porterfield to the OEM pads and report back...will be interesting to see is they exactly match.
M
 

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eliseowner2b said:
Im tracking my car in 3 weeks. I wonder if I should get these now or test the stock brakes to see how they hold up?
I strongly urge you to get dedicated track-only compound racing pads.

Not only will you have more confidence that the compound is up to high temps, but you will enjoy the experience much more with solid reliable braking.

In addition, you won't be having to replace your street pads very quickly.

I used the Porterfield pads mentioned here for a while on my previous car, and (1) the pad compound wasn't up to the high speed / repetitive braking, (think squirming under braking - not a great feeling), and (2) about 1/2 the pad was gone after one day. The first time I used track pads, I slapped my forehead at not having done it a lot sooner.

Note that this is not to say that you will have the same problems with the Elise (it's a different car compared to a 3rd gen RX-7), but the peace of mind alone is worth it.

Also, to be totally clear, I would have no problem using the Porterfields as everyday street pads. I just would go the extra step to get dedicated track pads for track days. Porterfield even makes a race-version of the R4 pad (R4-R, I think).

ed
 

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The Elise brakes while not huge compared to other cars are huge compared to the mass of the car. The temps tend to run lower than many other cars. This may affect pad choices. Sport Compact Car did some mountain and track testing and didn't run out of brakes at all. But they could with cars like the Evo and STI.

I suspect that the R4S may be up to track fun on the Elise without issue. The Elise can enter corners faster than some cars, which helps cut the related braking, and hasn't the horsepower of some other track cars, which also helps cut related braking efforts. Not to mention that with 62% rear weight bias the rear brakes can do much more work than on most other cars.

One way you can tell you are running into pad issues is when pad life is poor. Fade and higher wear happen at the same time. If the pad thickness wear is under control you're fine.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Porterfield Pads>>>

Go to link>>>

Porterfield Pad Pad Types

As you can see the R4-S pads are street performance with AutoX and LIGHT track use... So if you are going to do some serious track use suggest one of their track pads (which obviously you CAN NOT use on the street due to heat up requirements). But agree with Stan about the Elise...light car less mass to stop or slow so much less abuse on pads/rotors...now if we were talking about my Audi TT on the track...no discussion there... track pads a must.
 

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Road Atlanta is fairly hard on brakes and I've found out how under rated brakes can ruin a track day. I've had 3 TT's and put Stoptech's on the second one (kept them for the 3rd too). I've run my Elise through the dragon's tail twice and it was fine. With stock brakes on my oldest TT I would get a lot of fade around the 1/2 way point and on the track they were gone after 20 minutes. Does anyone know how much it costs to replace the stock pads vs these porterfields? I've been running Motul in my TT's as well. Would it be a good idea to change the brake fluid as well? I haven't looked at the calipers closely but is this a do-it-yourself job or are there special tools required?

Thanks for feedback!!!
 

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Dan remember something about the Audi TT versus the Elise. TTs weigh about 1200 - 1400 pounds more than the Elise. And they have 58% of the weight up front compared to 38% for the Lotus.

The Stoptech brakes for the TT are about 12.9 inches in diameter and are 28 mm thick. Those on the Elise are 11.1 inches and about 25 mm respectively. And they are the same front and rear. Hmm 12.9/11.1 => TTs with Stoptechs have 16 % more front brake diameter than a stock Elise....but the mass and weight distribution issues are way, way in excess of a 16% difference.

Brakes convert kinetic energy to heat. The energy is proportional to the velocity squared and the mass and is also affected by the starting and ending speeds. If you increase a brake rotor by say 20% in mass, the rise in temps per stop will be lower as the energy storage capacity of the disc is directly proportional to the disc mass. Put the same energy into a twice as heavy disc and the temps will be much lower.

So the Elise *stock* has much, much more brake than a TT modified with Stoptechs!!! When you consider the much lower mass and much more favorable weight distribution. You kind of have to do a paradigm shift in your head. For example, even the stock touring tires at 175 up front are not small for the load they must support. If you go by the weight they must handle, they'd be like using huge steamroller tires on a TT!

Lessee...58% of about 3300 pounds = 1914 pounds on the front axle. The Lotus is at about 38% of 1975 pounds or 750 pounds. Let's increase the width proportional to the weight...1975/750 times 175 mm => 460 mm width in terms of cornering. Not fully scientific there but the point is still valid.

TTs cannot stop at 1.38 gs, I am quite sure! Once we get some experience with the cars on track we may find that minor or no mids are necessary for most drivers and that service life remains good. Some heavly cars on track can easily consume a set of front pads in a couple runs totalling about 40 minutes. This won't happen with the Elise. If you have access to a infrared or other pyrometer that can read to high temps, use it. Once we know the temps we'll be able to judge things much better.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
TT and StopTechs>>>

eliseowner2b said:
Road Atlanta is fairly hard on brakes and I've found out how under rated brakes can ruin a track day. I've had 3 TT's and put Stoptech's on the second one (kept them for the 3rd too). I've run my Elise through the dragon's tail twice and it was fine. With stock brakes on my oldest TT I would get a lot of fade around the 1/2 way point and on the track they were gone after 20 minutes. Does anyone know how much it costs to replace the stock pads vs these porterfields? I've been running Motul in my TT's as well. Would it be a good idea to change the brake fluid as well? I haven't looked at the calipers closely but is this a do-it-yourself job or are there special tools required?

Thanks for feedback!!!
My TT has StopTechs with Porterfield pads... MUCH improved performance over stock and is only way to go for track events...tracking a TT with OEM brakes is very ill advised as many have found out. When I have been 'track master' for Audi club track events I have black flagged many of a TT due to impending brake failure. Again Stan's very fine technical assessment in right on the money...
Also I run with Motul DOT 5 and I suggest using if you track...and changing the pads on the StopTech is a piece of cake and no special tools required...not the case with the OEM rear brakes..the caliper piston is a 'compress and turn' type that requires a special tool or know how on how to compress this type of system. I can provide a lot more info on the TT set up...have a website containing loads of info on the TT and mods (I run with a MTM engine set up with Forge performance exhaust plus Abt/Bilstein sport shocks/struts along with a few other goodies...)

M
 

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Obviously, the extra weight is a contributing factor, but on an S2000, R4S pads will crumble on a brake-intensive track like CMP or Road Atlanta. Supposedly the R4 (non-S) pads will hold up better, but I have not used them. Carbotech Panther Plus is my current pad of choice. Aside from LOTS of dust and the occasional squeak, they work pretty good on the street too.
 

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>>>Obviously, the extra weight is a contributing factor, but on an S2000, R4S pads will crumble on a brake-intensive track like CMP or Road Atlanta. <<<

S2000 have 11 inch solid rear discs and 11.8 vented fronts. The car weighs about 800-900 punds more than the Elise and has much less weight over the rear wheels during braking in terms of percentage than the Elise. Hence, by comparison, the front S2000 discs have a tougher job than the Lotus's 11.1 fronts which are in effect larger than the Hondas compared to the task at hand. The Honda calipers are also sliders so they tend to exert a bit more force to the inner surface of the disc compared to the outer surface.

Time will tell but at least on paper it looks like the Lotus has a pretty capable stock setup compared to many other nice cars like the very slick S2000.
 

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The stock pads fitted to the Elise are actually quite decent and usually have little problems with track use until you get quite proficient with these cars. Much more 'track' oriented material than used on other regular cars.

As earlier posts mention does the light weight and relatively big brakes help to keep the brakes cool, so fade is not very common on these cars.

Motorsport elises sometimes used brake-ducting, but they often found that the brakes were actually over-cooled unless they were running on very tight circuits.

The problem with the normal pads is that they are sometimes a little 'dull' in the feedback and it's harder to control the braking as you stand on the pedal.

Using low to medium friction track/road pads (often the 'endurance race' type) is usually best on the Elise. These usually still have a higher friction index than the stock pads (so give you good braking at lower pedal pressures, easier to control/modulate), but usually do not have extreme wear speeds on rotors or pads themselves.

High friction pads often tend to be too 'grabby' and destroy your brake modulation control, while more extreme 'race' pads simply won't reach operating temperatures on the Elise brakes because they don't get that hot to start with.

Pretty much *the* pads for use on the Elise in Europe are the PAGID RS4-2 (blue) pads for road and light track use and the RS14 (black) pads for more intensive track use. Many people found the PAGID RS-15 to be too extreme, although some run these on the back.

I'm a bit of an oddball and run SBS ProTrack carbon-ceramic pads on my Elise, which I'm very happy with (I think Mark A uses the same on his Exige..)

Bye, Arno.
 
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