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Discussion Starter #1
I would like to explore the pros and cons of using 4-5-6 pt harnesses on the street with no helmet or HANS device. Please add your safety comments.

PROS:
1. Holds you in the seat better for cornering
2. Looks cool - but not if you get hurt

CONS:
1. Your head will hit the ground in a rollover
2. Whiplash - No slack in the belts to ease your head in to the airbag
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
Oh crap - this doesn't look good for me. LOL. The reason I ask the question is that I see a lot of people have harnesses in their Lotus and wonder what they do on the street. The safety thread is in the track forum and I know what to do on a track, not with harnesses on the street.
 

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use the stock harnesses. my vehicle has both. only way to go.

Keep the car stock or put in full on harnesses.
Make a compromise (though not much of one) and keep both if you can.

Those are your options, obviously.
I chose the latter, though it required some more work.
 

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harness no good unless you have rollcage.

Reason is IF you roll over and the roof collapses on you, your body is stuck to the seat, and you may break your neck.


Also harness should be at least 5 pt to prevent submarining.


I'm not too sure how strong the exige roof is. I mean I see Harness bars (not rollcage) behind the seat for use with a harness. It is basically encouraging customers to put harness in the car ....especially with the bucket seats with shoulder mount holes.


Elise I think is safe with 5pt or 6 pt harness. Targas should already been tested for rollover occurances.
 

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harness no good unless you have rollcage.

Reason is IF you roll over and the roof collapses on you, your body is stuck to the seat, and you may break your neck.


Also harness should be at least 5 pt to prevent submarining.


I'm not too sure how strong the exige roof is. I mean I see Harness bars (not rollcage) behind the seat for use with a harness. It is basically encouraging customers to put harness in the car ....especially with the bucket seats with shoulder mount holes.


Elise I think is safe with 5pt or 6 pt harness. Targas should already been tested for rollover occurances.
There is no difference between the Elise and the Exige in terms of roll over safety - both use exactly the same chassis and rollover protection. The roof on the Exige is non-structural (like the hardtop for the Elise).

As for 5/6pt - yes much better than four point, but 4pt is no worse than standard lap/sash for submarining.
 

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actually depends on what 4pt harness.

A traditional 3 pt allows the body to move foward a little bit before allowing your body to bounce back into the seat...and then submarine.

Some 4 pts don't have the release feature..and keep you lock into the seat which make submarining worst.
 

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harness no good unless you have rollcage.

Reason is IF you roll over and the roof collapses on you, your body is stuck to the seat, and you may break your neck.

The Elise and Exige have an integrated roll bar... right behind your head. the body work covers it up. Look at stig's car. Not sure if he modified his, but it will give you an idea of what is under all that fiberglass. It sticks up pretty high too IIRC.

So, no, you shouldn't be scraping your head on the dirt if you roll. The "top" shouldn't collapse and crush you in with our cars.

Still, like everyone on here has said, Use the harnesses on the track and use the 3pt stock seatbelt on the street.

Also, you should NOT use the harnesses with the stock seats that don't already have holes for the shoulder straps to fit through, and you should not modify the seats to have the holes... not safe.

Dave
 

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.

...and you should not modify the seats to have the holes... not safe.

Dave
I keep hearing this argument, but never have I seen a specific, scientific reason for why it is "not safe". What are you supposedly doing to the seat if you put holes in it?

Surely vendors of "grommets" such as Sector 111 don't want to sell unsafe products?

I really would like to get a definitive reason beyond what appears to be well-intentioned speculation. Thanks

Regards,
Wayne
 

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There is no difference between the Elise and the Exige in terms of roll over safety - both use exactly the same chassis and rollover protection. The roof on the Exige is non-structural (like the hardtop for the Elise).
Some Exiges (thinking those with a track pack) have additional bracing in the internal roll bar.

As for 5/6pt - yes much better than four point, but 4pt is no worse than standard lap/sash for submarining.
Not true. 4 points with ASM (anti-submarining) like Schroht will allow the upper body to move a little and deter submarining like a three point. However, most four point belts don't have this feature and shouldn't be used in any situation.
 

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I agree with Wayne, No one has ever provided any documentation just opinions and here's mine!
There are just too many variables in real life to cover all the possible accidents and which restraint system would be best for whatever unfortunate incident may occur,
Torso height,Shoulder width, Waist size all come into play so the best you can do is use common sense.
For the street I use my Stock 3 point setup since my car still has it's airbags because that is the way the car was designed to protect me!
For the track I use a 4-point with the ASM technology and I am wearing my helmet if I am on track and I feel comfortable with this setup and I just hope I never get to "TEST" any of these theories!
The reality is you have no control of what is going to happen in an accident so use your common sense!
 

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I keep hearing this argument, but never have I seen a specific, scientific reason for why it is "not safe". What are you supposedly doing to the seat if you put holes in it?

Surely vendors of "grommets" such as Sector 111 don't want to sell unsafe products?

I really would like to get a definitive reason beyond what appears to be well-intentioned speculation. Thanks

Regards,
Wayne
The documentation from Schroth says quite clearly NOT to modify seats for ANY harness strap. You can go to their site and find the pdfs quite easily.
 

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The documentation from Schroth says quite clearly NOT to modify seats for ANY harness strap. You can go to their site and find the pdfs quite easily.
I've read the Schroth instructions and warnings many times and, as with all manufacturers' caveats, is subject to interpretation.

For example, here is the language Schroth uses for seat use and/or modification:

"No racing harness will function properly when installed in vehicles equipped with seats having no headrest or having backrests with integrated headrest and no openings between the backrest and the headrest [e.g. stock Porsche seats]. In such seats the shoulder belts will slide off occupant’s shoulders during an accident. Never modify factory seats to create new slots. The seat structure may be impaired or sharp edges of the seat frame may damage the racing harness webbing.
Severe injuries or death may occur."


Schroth's warning about NOT modifying a seat is based on 2 assumptions:
1. The seat structure may be impaired...
2. ...or sharp edges of the seat frame may damage the racing harness webbing.


Note the use of the word "may" in each statement. Not definitive.

I'll repeat my earlier question: In what way is the seat weakened when adding holes? Holes for grommets do not cut into the re-inforced spine of the Elise seat.

Also, Schroth's second warning is moot as there are NO sharp edges to damage the webbing when using grommets.

I understand that Schroth needs to issue warnings and specific usage conditions for its products, but these statements are all-inclusive and cannot possibly address all individual situations.

So back to the original issue, Why are holes unsafe?

Regards,
Wayne
 

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I see a lot of people at the track with harnesses over the shoulders of the seat (lots of cars, not just Loti) and a chest strap that holds the shoulder harnesses together. What's wrong with that? Why do I need shoulder grommets if I were to do this?
 
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