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Discussion Starter #1
Not too many questions, but more than one.

First a statement.

I don't have a rule book yet, so I would look this up there, but like i just stated....I don't have one yet! I did pre order one of the 2003's though.

Now with that out of the way, on to the questions. ;)

First: (having nothing to do with the rule book) What is the Snowbird Nationals in Phoenix? Is this the first event of the National tour for 2003?

Second: is it legal for me to put an adjustable upper control arm on the rear end of my 240? Why would I want to do this, you ask. Because i want more camber out of the rear, and that is the only solution that is offered!!!

Thanks in Advance
 

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Snowbird answer Re: Questions!!!!!!!!!

What is the Snowbird Nationals in Phoenix? Is this the first event of the National tour for 2003?
The Snowbird Nationals is Arizona Region's annual Double National Club Racing event. Usually among the first of the new season. It gets a lot of out-of-towners who are still waiting for snow to melt in their own Regions.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Re: Snowbird answer Re: Questions!!!!!!!!!

Kimberly said:


The Snowbird Nationals is Arizona Region's annual Double National Club Racing event. Usually among the first of the new season. It gets a lot of out-of-towners who are still waiting for snow to melt in their own Regions.
oooooooohhh.:) That sounds like fun, if you are into that sort of thing.:cool:

But what about my other question?:(
 

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IIRC, the rear suspension on a 240SX is a multilink suspension with struts. Well, at least that was the design of the S14, not sure about the S13. But if it is a multilink suspension with struts (non MacPherson struts), then you're allowed to change either the upper or the lower control arms only for the purpose of camber adjustment.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Vincent, are you quoting that from the scca rule book? That would be soooooo cool.
:D
 

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Discussion Starter #7
vwong said:
IIRC, the rear suspension on a 240SX is a multilink suspension with struts. Well, at least that was the design of the S14, not sure about the S13. But if it is a multilink suspension with struts (non MacPherson struts), then you're allowed to change either the upper or the lower control arms only for the purpose of camber adjustment.
Yes, I belive that it is a multi link suspension, and it does use struts. But what do you mean by non MacPherson struts? What is the diff?

If you couldn't tell, I love cars, but I am still learning about them.:)
 

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non macpherson struts look simliar to regular macpherson struts but the spring is not a coilover style, it is located in a different place on the car, but the reason they are still called struts is because they tie 2 parts of the suspension together (load bearing) while a shock is not load bearing and is not a "link" between suspension parts.

Picture a regular macpherson strut without the large lower perch for the spring.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
mazdaspeedwest said:
non macpherson struts look simliar to regular macpherson struts but the spring is not a coilover style, it is located in a different place on the car, but the reason they are still called struts is because they tie 2 parts of the suspension together (load bearing) while a shock is not load bearing and is not a "link" between suspension parts.

Picture a regular macpherson strut without the large lower perch for the spring.
They are the MacPherson style struts. So this means that I can't do this? Or Can I. I am feeling like I just learned something, but I am also feeling more in the dark at the same time.:(

It is not so bad in the dark.

(crack)

What was that!:(
 

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MacPherson struts are what you have in the front suspension of your Protege, Darryl; so is your 240SX, Gunnar. MacPherson strut suspensions do not have upper control arms, they only have lower control arms. The top part of the hubs are mounted to the bottom of the MacPherson struts, then the top of the MacPherson struts are mounted to the shock tower. On stock suspensions, the top mounts do not have camber adjustability. Most aftermarket suspension upgrades for MacPherson struts allow for camber adjustments if you have the camber plates (or called pillowball upper mounts). Cars that have the MacPherson struts are Will's Escort, David & Darryl's Proteges, Art's Sentra, Gunnar's 240SX, WRX's, RSX's (JDM DC5 Integra's), etc... Usually, MacPherson struts are used in the front suspensions, but I think Art's Sentra has MacPherson struts on the rear too (please correct me if I'm wrong, Art). Most Honda's don't have MacPherson strut suspensions except the new RSX's (JDM DC5 Integra's) and new Civic's.

For suspensions like double wishbones (found in most Honda's) and multilinks (found in S14 and maybe other Nissan's rear suspensions) do not have camber adjustability. The only ways to allow camber adjustments are either change the upper or lower control arms that are designed for camber adjustments, and camber kits that replace the ball joints of the upper turn knuckle (there are other types of camber kits too). If you have these kind of suspensions, then you're allowed to change either the upper or lower control arms in STS/STX. This is in Section 17.8.E.

Camber kits may be installed on vehicles that do not have McPherson strut type suspensions. These kits may include replacement control arms or other parts that are designed specifically to compensate for camber changes resulting from lowering the car. These parts must use the original attachment points.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
vwong said:
MacPherson struts are what you have in the front suspension of your Protege, Darryl; so is your 240SX, Gunnar. MacPherson strut suspensions do not have upper control arms, they only have lower control arms.
This much I now understand. Thank you Vincent :)


For suspensions like double wishbones (found in most Honda's) and multilinks (found in S14 and maybe other Nissan's rear suspensions) do not have camber adjustability. The only ways to allow camber adjustments are either change the upper or lower control arms that are designed for camber adjustments, and camber kits that replace the ball joints of the upper turn knuckle (there are other types of camber kits too). If you have these kind of suspensions, then you're allowed to change either the upper or lower control arms in STS/STX.
This is what I believe I have on the rear end. When I look under the car I see the 2 control arms. One on the bottom, one in the middle(towards the back), and one at the top of the wheel hub. that looks like this -0- as it wraps around the shock. Now I am guessing that is the upper control arm that would be replaced. Right? And with 3 arms coming away from the hub, that should most certainly be a multi link suspension. :)

Sorry for not understanding this very quickly. I was not the sharpest crayon in the box, when it comes to this sort of thing, but I am getting there:D

Thanks again guys!
 

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Gunnar said:
When I look under the car I see the 2 control arms. One on the bottom, one in the middle(towards the back), and one at the top of the wheel hub. that looks like this -0- as it wraps around the shock. Now I am guessing that is the upper control arm that would be replaced. Right? And with 3 arms coming away from the hub, that should most certainly be a multi link suspension. :)
The one in the middle is probably for adjusting the toe. The one on top is the one you can change. I'm looking at a HyperREV magazine on Silvia S13 & S14, Cusco makes one to replace the upper control arms, and you can adjust camber.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
vwong said:
MacPherson struts are what you have in the front suspension of your Protege, Darryl; so is your 240SX, Gunnar.
If you have these kind of suspensions, then you're allowed to change either the upper or lower control arms in STS/STX. This is in Section 17.8.E.

Camber kits may be installed on vehicles that do not have McPherson strut type suspensions. These kits may include replacement control arms or other parts that are designed specifically to compensate for camber changes resulting from lowering the car. These parts must use the original attachment points.
These 2 statements seem to contradict one another. or is this a typo?
 

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You cannot have any camber kits in your front suspension since it's MacPherson type. But you can have camber plates for the front to adjust camber. For your rear suspension, since it's multilink and it's not MacPherson strut type, then 17.8.E applies.

17.8.C:

On vehicles with strut-type suspensions, adjustable camber plates may be installed at the top of the strut, and the original upper mounting holes may be slotted. The drilling of holes in order to perform the installation is permitted. The center clearance hole may not be modified. Any type of bearing or bushing may be used in the adjustable camber plate attachment to the strut. The installation may incorporate an alternate upper spring perch/seat and/or mounting block (bearing mount). Any ride height change resulting from installation of camber plates is allowed. Caster changes resulting from the use of camber places are permitted.

The "strut-type suspensions" in this section really refers to MacPherson strut type suspension.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
ooohhhhhh!:)

Now I get it! Darryl have me hung up on the shock and spring placement thing. But that is not the issue at all. It is all about the fact that the front only connects at the bottom of the wheel hub and then again at the pillow ball mount. And the rear has multiple connection points:D

I am a very happy man now! No longer confused!!!

Thanks Vincent :cool:
 
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