The Lotus Cars Community banner
1 - 20 of 27 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All

Well the warranty is now up and upgradeitis has taken hold!

I have already fitted a Radium CAI and a Larini 3rd cat replacement pipe on my NA car a while back and it sounds great under load and is quiet when pootling. I had my car daynoed as it is now and the mixture was fine with no worrying under or over-fuelling.

Well I just ordered the tubular manifolds, Y-pipe and 100cell sports cat from Jim at 2bular. I plan to run these with the stock back box for now to a)save some cash and b) I really don't want it too loud and would prefer so see how it sounds with the standard back box first.

I am hoping for a little more torque and a much cooler engine bay for better longevity (worked well on my Elise - 120k miles and no electrical failures). I had the Elise for 14 years and the Evora feels like a keeper!

Jim has worries that the stock ECU map will not play nicely with his pipes AND the Radium CAI.

Has anyone dynoed a car fitted with the 2bular manifolds and the Radium CAI and loggedor checked the CO levels?

Depending on what I hear, I will leave the Radium on and when I pick the car up next month I will head straight to the Dyno in Newbury and check it out.
Thanks
All the best
Spunagain
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
857 Posts
You are using my trick of cross posting to the US and UK boards.

I don't have aftermarket collectors but like you I would be worried that the Radium plus the catless collectors would lean the afr out too much. Dyno it but be prepared to pick up a BOE intake.
 

·
Illegal Alien
Joined
·
5,306 Posts
Hi All

Well the warranty is now up and upgradeitis has taken hold!

I have already fitted a Radium CAI and a Larini 3rd cat replacement pipe on my NA car a while back and it sounds great under load and is quiet when pootling. I had my car daynoed as it is now and the mixture was fine with no worrying under or over-fuelling.

Well I just ordered the tubular manifolds, Y-pipe and 100cell sports cat from Jim at 2bular. I plan to run these with the stock back box for now to a)save some cash and b) I really don't want it too loud and would prefer so see how it sounds with the standard back box first.

I am hoping for a little more torque and a much cooler engine bay for better longevity (worked well on my Elise - 120k miles and no electrical failures). I had the Elise for 14 years and the Evora feels like a keeper!

Jim has worries that the stock ECU map will not play nicely with his pipes AND the Radium CAI.

Has anyone dynoed a car fitted with the 2bular manifolds and the Radium CAI and loggedor checked the CO levels?

Depending on what I hear, I will leave the Radium on and when I pick the car up next month I will head straight to the Dyno in Newbury and check it out.
Thanks
All the best
Spunagain
While I don't have Jim's 2bular manifold, I do have the near equal (at least in layout, tube lengths and dyno numbers) Komo-tec system that I originally ran to the stock silencer box. You don’t' say if you are NA or SC, ISP or 6-spd, it is a big deal as the S and ISP’s (S or NA) are not forgiving to the AFR's being too lean. Additionally if Jim states a concern with your set up I would go with his advice, I have worked with Jim and he is a very up-and-up fellow.

Over here, VSA and BOE with collaboration have built up quite a data base from early adopter cars using Radium and BOE intakes; 2bular and Komo-tec short manifolds, and Supersprint and Lotus GT4 long tube manifolds, tuned and untuned. The consensus is that the Radium intake does not play well .. it miss reads the air flow sampling thus giving false AFR’s tricking the ECU to think the engine is richer than it really is. Please read treads relating to Radium, BOE intake, Komo-tec, Supersprint. Early adopters included Ramtin1000 with Radium + Supersprint + tune on converted S with engine failure leading to later dropping the Radium; Bobsy Racer with 2bular on NA w/ stock intake & OEM tune; me on Komo-tec+BOE (prototype) + tune .. BOE is currently testing most all headers configurations and custom tuning solutions.

I would not add headers + intake without also including a tune (either packaged Kold-fire or custom), regardless of model Evora. It is too shortsighted, leaning out the engine is not worth the few extra dollars (pounds) to get a tune.

Additional points, more power is actually available from the tune than from the headers themselves. CO readings are meaningless for engine set up, what you need to log are the air fuel ratios (AFR’s). As to sounds, the headers sweeten the sounds tone without much change in noise - pressure level. You will still want to change out the "aft box" .. I have settled on the Larini as a good compromise of sound, weight and quality.

Julian

PS I see you did state you have an NA, regardless get a tune with this many changes and drop the Radium box for a BOE.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
857 Posts
I understand that the radium causes problems for S cars but have not personally read about a stock NA car having an engine failure due to the intake. If someone supercharges an NA car that is one thing.

I also have read several posts about the radium messing up IPS cars. Can anyone explain to me how this happens? I don't understand how the afr can affect a transmission and specifically cause a transmission to fail as I have seen asserted in other threads.
 

·
Illegal Alien
Joined
·
5,306 Posts
Don't know what AFR feedback loop is on the ISP's but it has killed some.

As to NA cars you are right, not read of issues .. not because tehy dont exist as on the S but because at that power level engine is more tolerance of error. Now, my personal concern where I woudl pull my radium on an NA is if I was boosting power up with other add-ons such as the OP mentioned, i.e. headers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
857 Posts
I have read about one guy in Malaysia on the UK board claiming that the radium made his NA stall on occasion but I am not sure if he was a manual or IPS and further not sure if he attempted to clean the throttle body since that has been shown to cause stock cars to stall.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,409 Posts
there have been NAs killed by the radium. I won't start a whole flame war this is better than that, but the gist is exactly what Julian said. As far as how it kills IPS cars-when the engine is shifting and rev-matching for you, based off your driving, road conditions, throttle position, engine information etc....if it thinks it is seeing one thing, in one condition, and you down shift, and in reality it sees something totally different, it isn't healthy.


Regardless, I waited to chime in but I would avoid it. Jim is pretty clear about how he feels the intake works with his headers, and most will not recommend it, so I wouldn't either. But that is the beauty of being an enthusiast-you can always be a guinea pig for something!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
857 Posts
I don't have aftermarket manifolds and don't plan to install them. Car will remain stock with exception of radium and decat pipe. If anything happens to my car I will let the board know so at least one solid data point will be available.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
301 Posts
So Julien if one changes the manifolds on the car you strictly recommend purchasing a tune for it to ensure best operation? I'm now contemplating purchasing a full Larini system, from manifolds to muffler. Got an S IPS with the BOE installed
 

·
Illegal Alien
Joined
·
5,306 Posts
The tune is obviously optional, can be done any time and is reversible. But honestly I think it gives the best bang for the buck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
301 Posts
The tune is obviously optional, can be done any time and is reversible. But honestly I think it gives the best bang for the buck.
I agree, I intend to do it, but I may run into warranty issues. So to better word my question, if I install the full Larini exhaust system into a car that already has the BOE CAI, will the ECU be able to readjust and provide a proper air fuel ratio and prevent the car from running lean or you think a tune would be a necessary move with such upgrades (manifolds, sports cat, muffler, CAI)?
 

·
Illegal Alien
Joined
·
5,306 Posts
Outside of my knowledge. BOE itself will not rich/lean car, Bobsy Racer runs his NA without a tune...Best ask Phil or VSA they have worked on the most mods and dyno results.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
857 Posts
Had a great, long, spirited drive today. Radium sounded the business and afrs still look good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,409 Posts
Fwiw...that's the whole point. The afr you are reading via obd2 are what the car thinks it's seeing.

Plug a wideband on the back end and compare the two (would require a standalone system or dyno with wideband) to really know what afr you are really seeing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
Hi Julian
Thanks for the considered response!

The BOE thread is a bit of a monster and I had not rechecked it for a few months, just re-read end to end!

Apologies for talking about CO - I meant AFR - I did not have my plots to hand when I was writing the Email and it was a while since I had them done! I have attached my power and AFR plot for interest. We did a couple of runs which gave the same result, but I guess that may not be a conclusive endorsement of the systems performance from what others have experienced.



(I will upload the image later tonight!)
BTW my car is a manual with the normal (not close) ratio gearbox. I am not sure anyone in the US has got that box.

I think as you say -the best way forward is:
1) to get a BOE set up and install that with the 2bular set up.
2) Look into getting a tune to support the two.

I am still tempted as an interesting experiment to run the Radium and record the AFR on the rolling road and compare that back to back with the BOE with the stock tune. (And do a few runs with each to check repeatability).

I do hope Bobsy puts up some before/after dyno plots with his 2bular and BOE system as that will almost match what I am planning with just different back boxes!

Cheers
Regards
Spunagain.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
857 Posts
Fwiw...that's the whole point. The afr you are reading via obd2 are what the car thinks it's seeing.

Plug a wideband on the back end and compare the two (would require a standalone system or dyno with wideband) to really know what afr you are really seeing.
FWIW...I am confident that the equation that I have instructed my app to run in realtime to calculate the AFR based upon readings from other inputs (not just MAF which you likely allege is inaccurate) available via the CAN Bus protocol that our OBD system uses is quite sufficient.
 

·
Vendor
Joined
·
6,306 Posts
I understand that the radium causes problems for S cars but have not personally read about a stock NA car having an engine failure due to the intake. If someone supercharges an NA car that is one thing.

I also have read several posts about the radium messing up IPS cars. Can anyone explain to me how this happens? I don't understand how the afr can affect a transmission and specifically cause a transmission to fail as I have seen asserted in other threads.
The IPS trans is controlled by a computer. The computer uses various inputs to control the shift speed, gear, etc... One of these inputs is going to be an engine load calculation. Engine Load is a value the ECU uses for many many operating parameters and calculated primarly by RPM and metered airflow (derived from the mass airflow sensor or MAF), with other less significant factors playing in as well.

If you manipulate the MAF to be a lower number, the engine load will also be lower. Engine load is a value that is used throughout the ECU to control shifting, fuel, spark, accell enrichment, and probably 150 other items (no hyperbole).


When making hardware changes, it's important that your hardware not impact the way MAF or RPM are measured. While the latter is obvious, it seems some folks are discounting the importance of the MAF value. If the MAF value is not in correct relationship to the tune it was designed before, then one of the TWO most critical inputs the ECU has to work with is no longer valid and Engine Load will be incorrectly calculated. When the engine load is no longer correct, you get incorrect fueling, spark, and an IPS car that is not shifting how it was intended to. Just because you cannot feel the difference in the trans shifting, doesn't mean that it's perfectly happy...

As for using an OBD2 reader/app to calculate AFR, there's no way that's going to be even remotely accurate. The ECU does spit out "target AFR" on the obd2 stream. More than once, people have mistakenly used that value as an indication of the AFR the car is running. That would be in error. The target AFR translates very little reality on the factory tune. The way to derive AFR with any reasonable degree of accuracy with traditional "at home" tools is with an external WB02 system such as an LM2, NGK AFX, AEM, etc...


-Phil
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,143 Posts
I do hope Bobsy puts up some before/after dyno plots with his 2bular and BOE system as that will almost match what I am planning with just different back boxes!

Cheers
Regards
Spunagain.
Spunagain,

I have the full 2bular exhaust system, Headers, Downpipe, and Metallic Cat, but have NOT added the BOE CAI. I am still running the OEM Airbox /filter, so the only dyno data I have is that posted in my 2bular exhaust system thread, with the stock intake system. The factory ECU tune works fine with the 2bular Headers along with the stock intake, and has never given a CEL.

I would like to add a BOE CAI. My only concerns with it are the added induction noise, and possibly needing a "tune" when used in conjunction with the 2bular exhaust system. I would probably do a custom tune anyway, just to maximize the performance benefits for the headers and CAI. But, perhaps Phil can clarify whether a Tune is necessary, with that combination.
 
1 - 20 of 27 Posts
Top