[slvr05elise]

RE: Shim Removal and Alignment

When removing the front camber shims, is it highly required or necessary to do an alignment post shim removal. I tried searching but didn't seem to come up with anything to clear or decisive. Also, does removing the shims have an impact on the toe. I appoligize for the novice questions, I am still in the process of researching and understanding suspension setup and adjustments. Thanks for everyones patience and assistance.

 

[apk919]

When removing the front camber shims, is it highly required or necessary to do an alignment post shim removal. I tried searching but didn't seem to come up with anything to clear or decisive. Also, does removing the shims have an impact on the toe. I appoligize for the novice questions, I am still in the process of researching and understanding suspension setup and adjustments. Thanks for everyones patience and assistance.

Removing shims has a minimal effect on toe. You should find some way of measuring camber though... there are a few ways to do it:

1) digital camber gauge (cool, but not cheap)
2) bubble camber gauge (cheaper, but still requires a dedicated camber guage)
3) plumb bob and caliper/ruler/etc (most inexpensive, but most effort)

 

[slvr05elise]

If you remove the same amount of shims from both sides, why is it neccessary to measure the camber adjustment. Just curious, I'm learning here :nanner:

 

[SoCalLotusElise06]

Did someone say Shim?

 

[apk919]

If you remove the same amount of shims from both sides, why is it neccessary to measure the camber adjustment. Just curious, I'm learning here :nanner:

There's no guarantee that the car's camber is currently symmetrical, and there's no guarantee that the car's chassis is symmetrical. In fact it's rare to find a car that requires the same number of shims, side to side, in both front and rear to give consistent camber results. Remember, we're talking tenths of a degree here... very small amounts.

 

[slvr05elise]

So with the car set the way it is now, would it be bad to simply take out the same number of shims (and size) from both the left and right fronts and not get it aligned or have the camber measured right away? Currently the car simply understeers much more than I would like, and I am looking for a quick improvement for the time being without harming the car or my tires until I can get it further dialed in.

 

[apk919]

So with the car set the way it is now, would it be bad to simply take out the same number of shims (and size) from both the left and right fronts and not get it aligned or have the camber measured right away? Currently the car simply understeers much more than I would like, and I am looking for a quick improvement for the time being without harming the car or my tires until I can get it further dialed in.

Well, most people just remove all the shims (sometimes including the speed sensor shim), regardless of whether the result is symmetrical camber. Truth is, for autocross/track applications, the optimal camber is more negative than can be acquired by removing shims alone...

 

[slvr05elise]

Are the v2arms from sector 111 a good idea, or can they put undue stress on the suspension and control arms?

 

[Sh4rkattk]

I removed the same number of shims at the front including the abs sensor bracket, and found that the alignment did not really effect tire wear unevenly. In the rear I only removed a few shims on each side, later confirmed via alignment that i was spot on with my estimate at -2.5. I used a digital level to get an approximation.

However after 800-1000 miles i decided to mill down the steering arms to get more camber. I had a machine shop mill down 5 mm, with all the shims removed I estimated about -2.2, which was over my target. I put back the stock number of shims and achieved my goal of -1.6. After milling I could tell the alignment was way off, steering wheel was no longer straight so i had the dealership preform an alignment to my spec. They confirmed my estimates of camber change.

Changing the rear shims did not require a toe change.

Are the v2arms from sector 111 a good idea, or can they put undue stress on the suspension and control arms?

I say don't waste your money, take the stock arms machine them down. I had it done for about $100.

 

[Dragon]

Are the v2arms from sector 111 a good idea, or can they put undue stress on the suspension and control arms?

I'm running them with no issues to date... LOTS of adjustment, you should be able to get up to around 2.5' of camber with no shims.

I'm currently running 1.425' on the front and it's a tiny bit twitchy on some of the rutted up roads here, but the grip in the corners is night and day. I'm also running 2.5' on the rear. (I started at 1.8' on the front just to see what it would be like and found it to very twitchy on rough streets. Definitely bad juju in the rain.)

For AutoX I'm going to leave the rear at 2.5' and pull 2mm's from each front giving me around 2' of camber for the Hoosier A6's and go from there.

If you shave the stock arms you'll get the same effect, but you will need to order more stock shims if you shave off more than a couple of mm's. The V2 kit with all the stainless steel shims (it also includes rear shims) in varying sizes is a pretty good deal at it's price.

 

[apk919]

Are the v2arms from sector 111 a good idea, or can they put undue stress on the suspension and control arms?

They will not put any more stress on your suspension than the stock arms.

I say don't waste your money, take the stock arms machine them down. I had it done for about $100.

:huh:

The steering arms from Sector111 or EliseParts do more than just allow more negative camber... they also change the height of the position of the track rod end; if you're running your suspension lower that 130mm (say, 120mm), this <strike>corrects</strike> improves the bump steer curve.

EDIT: OK, guys... is that (^^^) better?

 

[dmh]

The steering arms from Sector111 or EliseParts do more than just allow more negative camber... they also change the height of the position of the track rod end; if you're running your suspension lower that 130mm (say, 120mm), this corrects the bump steer curve.

The EliseParts arms do not correct the bump steer curve -- no arm will. What the EP arms do is alter the curve and allow for is adjustment with shims/spacers/washers. When you setup a race/track car this is easily verifiable with a bump steer gauge. We use an ART Laser Bump Steer Gauge.

(Sorry, but every now-and-then I get the overwhelming urge to correct a post with misinformation.)

 

[38bfast]

The EliseParts arms do not correct the bump steer curve -- no arm will. What the EP arms do is alter the curve and allow for is adjustment with shims/spacers/washers. When you setup a race/track car this is easily verifiable with a bump steer gauge. We use an ART Laser Bump Steer Gauge.

(Sorry, but every now-and-then I get the overwhelming urge to correct a post with misinformation.)

Correct. the EP arms or the V2 arms do not correct bump steer. They change it to be less severe. It's like changing your camber. The OE bump is not wrong just not optimum for some for sprited driving.

 

[Sh4rkattk]

Anyone know how much the arms alter the the bump curve?

 

[Green Ghost]

Have you had your car aligned before or is it as it was off the show room floor?

I found that after I pulled the front shims the front grip was just fantastic. But then the rear was to loose. I spun the car real good once (got sideways). Then did the rear and now all is fine.

I say if you’ve never gotten an alignment before, pull at least 3 shims from each side front (cars vary so you may only have 2 on one side and 5 on the other) and one shim each side rear. Then get an alignment, see where you are, and how you like the change. From there you can pull a few more shims with no big affect on your new alignment.

Just an idea that may work for you.

 

[dmh]

Anyone know how much the arms alter the the bump curve?

Yes and no depending on what arms and setup. One thing is for certain though, you cannot just mill or replace the arms, lower the ride height, alter the castor and camber and call it a day. What you may end up with is a far more ill handling car than stock. That is why bump steer gauges are a racers (or tracksters) friend.

(Sorry to say but as a DE instructor I cannot tell you how many Elises and Exiges I have driven with handling issues but it is practically all I have been in!)

 

[shay2nak]

Did someone say Shim?

they're not talking about women in this thread. go away...

 

[apk919]

Did someone say Shim?

they're not talking about women in this thread. go away...

^^^

A fine example of Shim removal...

 

[shay2nak]

^^^

A fine example of Shim removal...

rotfl

 

[dmh]

Oops...I failed to mentioned that if you are using the stock bushings as opposed to solid mounts (rod ends or a hard plastic of some sort) you will never be able to dial-out the bump steer. That is why all serious track and/or race cars have solid mounts.