The Lotus Cars Community banner

1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Forum Founder
Joined
·
29,081 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
o The SAC has advised the SEB that it believes the exclusion list will continue to grow or Solo risks obsolescing some very pop-
ular classes. Current participation levels have about 1/3 of stock class entrants in SS and AS. The SAC would like to expand
upon these popular platforms. The SAC proposes to expand the performance envelope of Stock Class by effectively shifting class-
es down. This extends the life of the most popular classes in Solo. The value/performance ratio in the top two classes are
unmatched and the SAC would like to see these cars remain competitive. The SAC considered creating a class between SS and
AS. The choice was difficult but the SAC believes expanding the performance envelope creates more growth opportunity with minimal disruption. To create this space the SAC has to combine two classes. The addition of a class is not an option. We expect the membership’s comments will help refine the proposal over the next 18 months.

The committee would like to propose the following alternatives for member comment. The effective date would be 1/1/2010.

Option 1: (Split CS to ES/BS)
1. Move the current CS to ES (except for the MX5 ‘06+ and Solstice)
2. Move the current BS to CS
3. Move the current AS to BS
4. Move the current SS to AS
5. Move the following to SS:
Lotus Elise SC
Lotus Exige S (all)

911 Turbo (996)
2008 Viper
6. And if/when new/secondary market pricing and/or tire availability is appropriate the following would be considered:
997 GT3
Audi R8
996 GT2
Corvette ZR1
Nissan GT-R
Nissan GT-R Spec V
Lotus Eagle

o Option 2: (CS/BS Merger)
1. Move the current BS to CS
2. Move the current AS to BS
3. Move the current SS to AS
4. Move the following to SS:
Lotus Elise SC
Lotus Exige S (all)

911 Turbo (996)
2008 Viper
5. And if/when new/secondary market pricing and/or tire availability is appropriate the following would be considered:
997 GT3
Audi R8
996 GT2
Corvette ZR1
Nissan GT-R
Nissan GT-R Spec V
Lotus Eagle
 

·
Forum Founder
Joined
·
29,081 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
In a nutshell... the SCCA is considering making a new class by moving existing classes down one step and combining ES and CS so the net result is the same number of classes. In the new SS will be the Elise SC and the Exige S and also possibly the Lotus Evora/Eagle (yay to SCCA/SEB for considering it now). The present Elise will move to AS where it continue to battle with the Z-06.
 

·
Forum Founder
Joined
·
29,081 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Surferjer may not be as thrilled since his ES car may get beat up on by faster cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
839 Posts
I wonder why the addition of a class is not an option, considering the fact that SS and AS have so many entrants. I thought there was some consideration being given to adding a class above the current SS to accommodate some of the really, really fast entries. Otherwise, the bottleneck does affect some of the existing cars (e.g., the ES class) where good competition exists, even if in slightly lower numbers. In the meantime, entries in many prepared classes (DP, FP, and GP) continue to decline. Maybe eliminating some of the prepared classes would offset the addition of yet another stock class at some point in the future.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,795 Posts
I wonder why the addition of a class is not an option, considering the fact that SS and AS have so many entrants. I thought there was some consideration being given to adding a class above the current SS to accommodate some of the really, really fast entries. Otherwise, the bottleneck does affect some of the existing cars (e.g., the ES class) where good competition exists, even if in slightly lower numbers. In the meantime, entries in many prepared classes (DP, FP, and GP) continue to decline. Maybe eliminating some of the prepared classes would offset the addition of yet another stock class at some point in the future.
I agree, what the hell do we need classes like GP for?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
992 Posts
R -

How do we members comment on this? Is there a form online? Link?

Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
R -

How do we members comment on this? Is there a form online? Link?

Thanks.
The only official way is to send email to [email protected].

I also don't see why "the addition of a class is not an option". The simplest option is just to add the new SS for the hyper-fast cars. It would be interesting to see the Solstice and MX5 in BS though.
 

·
Forum Founder
Joined
·
29,081 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
There must be more to it, as I don't get why a class can't be added to STOCK. This has nothing to do with Prepared or mod or street tire or whatever. No need to remove any of those, since I think they have good reasons to exist.

Unless one is looking to the future and deciding now that in 2010-2012, we will also need to fix the present classes of CS and ES. To me, that is really what is happening here. Kill two birds with one reclassing scheme. Give a place to play for the new faster cars, which I think makes sense. And fix what will become a dwindling participation class before it happens. Just my guess.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
Give a place to play for the new faster cars, which I think makes sense.
They already have a place to play, it's called ASP. Heck locally and even regionally my SS car can beat most of ASP and SM2! So these cars could come out and play and win if their owners wanted to, but they don't. So why create a stock class for cars that don't show up when there are SS cars that do show up but can't compete with the Z06s, GT3s and Elises?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
112 Posts
I've read an opinion on sccaforums that adding a stock class would require an increase in participation. The logic was that just because a Super duper stock class was added on top of what already exists it would require 20-40 new people to show up to Nationals to fill this class without affecting the rest of the classes. This kind of makes sense as it is not necessarily a set limit on the number of classes but more of a distribution of possible participant demographics.

I guess for the SEB it is a compromise of trying to retain the current participants and draw new ones while also giving some of the newer more exciting cars that have come out recently a place to play in stock classes. Not an easy task. Especially if you are trying to please everyone.
 

·
Forum Founder
Joined
·
29,081 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
They already have a place to play, it's called ASP. Heck locally and even regionally my SS car can beat most of ASP and SM2! So these cars could come out and play and win if their owners wanted to, but they don't. So why create a stock class for cars that don't show up when there are SS cars that do show up but can't compete with the Z06s, GT3s and Elises?
Why not make them run in AMOD then? Most regions, they would win.

That is not the point. If you paint the picture as only pertaining to a few select cars that nobody has, then it is strange yes. But if you are looking to the future, and seeing how many great cars now run in SS, and yet faster cars are coming from Chevrolet, Porsche, Lotus, Nissan, Toyota....and more. These are not just the oddball Lambo. These will be more mainstream. And to tell all these STOCK cars, that would upset SS, that they are only on an exclusion list and have to run in ASP, does not make as much sense.

It is not a comparison to cars that are not conveniently classed in stock. 99% of cars fall into that category. It is about having a stock class place for them at all.

I applaud the SEB for having this kind of vision.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,150 Posts
Well, option 2 is to combine the CS with BS. That may make more sense than eclipsing ES with current CS. ES has 51 participants so far for Nationals. CS, including ladies, only has 34. GS only has 32. If we cannot add a stock class, why kill the cheapest and 3rd most popular class in Solo? And the class is growing, not receding. 1/3rd of the registrants in ES are in Miatas this year. It's not a one class field, it's 2+.

If participation in ES falls, the 99 sport Miata can always be added to the class later. But killing ES now because there's a chance that in four years participation might dwindle is a little scary. They aren't guessing like that for any other well subscribed classes.

Also, I've been told to not mention pax in my letter to the SEB. However, CS and BS pax almost identically. If you look at the National tour results this year, CS was faster than BS 5 of 8 times. So CS would not necessarily be obsoleted in BS. And BS would cease to be a spec RX-8 class. I like that, others enjoy spec classes.

My personal choice would be to off a mod class like under-subscribed BM and simply add XS. Then nothing else get's screwed up. If that can't happen, then combine GS and DS. Or CS and BS.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,150 Posts
Oh, also, I agree that the SEB needs to create a class for faster than SS cars. That's a great idea, just like XP. Participation will be similar for a few years, but that class needs to exist. Just not at the expense of the class that's most affordable to play in, and very well-subscribed.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
246 Posts
So Jerry why didn't mention that ES would be 50 plus cars at Nationals last time I saw you? We did this work back in May/June. It would have saved us a lot of time.

I'm not really sure why people look at this proposal as creating room for "uber stock" when 3 of the 4 cars we proposed will be well under 50K in 2010 and the Viper should be around $60-65 or less. How is that Uber stock?

Its really a invitation to anyones who's been thinking about joining the SS/AS crowd. It insures they won't get the rug pulled out so fast.

People see what they want.

One of things we see is that the new crop of CS cars are faster than people know. They should match up with the BS cars.

I see the offering like this in 2010

SS
996TT 40K plus
Elise SC 40K plus
Exige 240 40K plus
08 Viper 60K plus
Plus anything else that fits that mold. That does not mean $100,000 cars.
If GTR's, Gallardo's, or F430's can be had in 40-60k range it might get looked at. I wouldn't count on super exotics becoming that affordable so don't hold your breath.

AS
C5Z06 20K plus
Elise 20 K plus
GT3 40 K plus

BS
S2000's 15K plus
GXP ZOK's 15K plus

CS
RX8's 10K plus
MSR's (not sure)
ZOK's (not sure)

DS
135i's 25K plus
plus a few cars yet classed.

Some classes will have "new" cars and the price of entry will be much higher. Thats how it goes with new cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,150 Posts
Brian, I don't remember any talk of sunsetting ES back in May. I thought we were safe through 2010, and all the talk was of dispersing DS alone. As for having 50+ cars in ES, I don't think anyone saw that coming. Certainly no one could do a poll and get an accurate count then. But they came, so the members have now spoken. I do not think the class will shrink any time soon. Why?

It makes sense given the economy and gas prices. ES looks like a good place to play because the entry costs are low, and you don't have to trailer the cars around the country. I personally have saved well over $5,000 in gas alone this season because of driving the 2 around vs. towing the Elise. The rising popularity of the Miata makes the future look bright, too. It may prove faster than the 2, ultimately.

I know you guys work hard and it's appreciated. And by securing SS and AS, you do protect the most popular classes. I would entertain getting back in the Elise at some point in the future if I get tired of ES, but that's a year or three away. I'm changing jobs in two weeks and will have a lot more income as a result, so more options will become available to me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
246 Posts
The addition of the Miata seems to be responsible for the increase. It offsets what would have a been a shrinking class. Thats good.

ES is aging and will have to accept new cars. Keeping the numbers up will delay that.

I forgot to put the :rolleyes: after "Why didn't you tell me" Of course no one saw 50 cars in ES this year. This why the membership doesn't understand proposals sometimes. We work on it so far in advance; you guys have the benefit of what actually happened. We can only surmise.

People also have to realize that this is for 2010 and we can change it many times before the 09 deadlines. Like the preamble said. We hope to refine the proposal through member comment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
487 Posts
I think ES grew because of what Jerry said regarding costs and also the fact that it wasn't mentioned as part of any reorganization this past year. Class stability is attractive when looking at a car to buy and with which to compete.

I know that when I bought the Z06 I did so thinking that it would be competitive nationally for a few years, regionally for 5 and locally for 10. Kind of like the Sandro LaRosa of NNJR. I could have fun with it for many years because it's a great car to drive.

Now that it appears obvious that the SAC and SEB agree that the "old" SS has cars that can make a great class well into the future, and appears willing to stabilize the class as long as attendence stays up, I agree that many members will consider joining the class because the cars will be somewhat affordable, the setups well known, the competitiveness established and the class stable. These cars are just darn fun to drive and you can learn to be a better driver with one because throttle control becomes important.

Kudos for stabilizing the two most popular classes!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,150 Posts
ES is aging and will have to accept new cars. Keeping the numbers up will delay that.

I forgot to put the :rolleyes: after "Why didn't you tell me" Of course no one saw 50 cars in ES this year. This why the membership doesn't understand proposals sometimes. We work on it so far in advance; you guys have the benefit of what actually happened. We can only surmise.
Understood on the numbers. I would assume that as long as ES is in the 40s or higher, we're probably okay. Once it drops like GS and CS have, it will be time for a shakeup. That could be a while.

Also, you are correct-we see the proposal, look at the numbers and go "WTF?" You had no way of knowing. Of course, now that the precipitous drop in GS participation has continued, is it still possible that GS turns out to be the class that goes poof? Or has that ship sailed? If it drops by another 33% next year, it will barely make numbers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,150 Posts
I think ES grew because of what Jerry said regarding costs and also the fact that it wasn't mentioned as part of any reorganization this past year. Class stability is attractive when looking at a car to buy and with which to compete.
Great point, Scott. I hadn't really thought of this, but it's true. And assuming ES avoids the axe, the numbers will continue to grow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
246 Posts
GS is mostly comprised of FWD Sport coupes, hatchbacks, and Sedans. Its hard to imagine that segment being drastically changed. There is a proposal to add more to that.

If you look at the numbers in SS/AS and you wanted to expand on those offerings the way to do that is offer something similar in both directions. We proposed that. A little faster SS but not so expensive so it prices out. The 135i in DS supports that thinking. We would end up with five classes of RWD sports cars and two of them have AWD offerings.

The CS cars are so similar to the S2000 and GXP that we might just be splitting the customer base. CS used to be a huge class. What happened? You could argue that the S2000 embodies all those traits. Light, more HP, 2 Seat sports coupe for the same or less money. I'm not surprised people pick the higher HP car.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
Top