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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has there been any official word (or any kind of word, for that matter...) about the Elise classing in SP? The way I see it, it will fall into CSP (catch-all for sports cars under 2.0l) as soon as 1000 have been sold, unless it gets classed explicitly. I can't really imagine it going anywhere but ASP.

I'm just asking out of curiosity, I plan to run SS next season. First time ever that I'll be running Stock, but it probably won't last more than a year. :)
 

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I agree. It should be an ASP car, but if they don't class it, will fall into CSP.

That would be fun. :)


Just a side note. I was talking to Gary Thomason who has tested the Elise for AMCI. He was at SEMA. He also has a lot of experience in ASP/SM/SM2. He thinks the Elise could do very well in ASP.
 

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Interesting, I just noticed that SS is faster than ASP in my region. So its not like you would have to do any extra work to the car to be competitive.

Now where is the evil grin emoticon? :D
 

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To really get the most out of the Elise In SP some "body work" is going to be required. I can't wait to see a saws-alled elise.

CSP would be crazy, I don't think there is anyway they will let that happen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Evl said:
Interesting, I just noticed that SS is faster than ASP in my region.
It's not unusual that classes with a higher preparation level are weaker at local events. It depends very much on what the fast drivers in your area happen to be running. In many regions you could probably go bottom fishing in some Prepared or Modified class that nobody is running if you want easy wins. ;)

Randy, did Gary Thomason say anything more about the Elise? He's certainly somebody who can make a good judgement. I'm still amazed that he beat Danny Popp by 2 seconds at Nationals.

Maybe the classing will simply appear in the new rulebook. I guess they only publish "urgent" new classings in FasTrack? If they forget about it, it won't take long after somebody shows up in CSP...
 

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>>>So would trimming the diffuser for a stage II exhaust be ok is SP?
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No.<<<

Protests are mainly an issue at Major National Events, even then most likely you'd have to do well to be "on the map". And they are not super common.

For local fun it's just not a concern. There is no performance benefit from a diffuser opening revision, and most people realize this. It would be a weanie protest that a potential protestor would be ashamed to push.

If you have a stage 2 and find yourself doing well in autocross and want to go National, then swap on a stock diffuser and change the Stage 2 tips so that they'll fit. The tubing ahead of the large diameter tips is not very large in diameter. You could also put on a Titanium tube exhaust with minimal muffling and cut weight way down while being "legal".
 

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Stan said:
For local fun it's just not a concern. There is no performance benefit from a diffuser opening revision, and most people realize this.
The question was, "Is this legal in SP?"

The correct answer is, "No."

I did not say I would protest it.

I did not say "I don't think you should run SP if you've done this."

I just answered the question. Correctly.
 

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>>>The question was, "Is this legal in SP?" The correct answer is, "No." I did not say I would protest it. I did not say "I don't think you should run SP if you've done this." I just answered the question. Correctly. <<<

You might be being a bit rigid and impractical here Jay. Most folks are not trying to win tightly contested National titles where such minutiae are important. Most autocrossing is local grass roots stuff and (IMO) folks should NOT stay away from an event because they have a Lotus Stage 2 exhaust on the car. Heck a number of folks have removed one or both sunvisors and some have plopped on a normal or small size rear view mirror, different side mirrors, other minor things, etc, etc. Lotus has sold quite a few Stage 2s here so far.

I think that autocrossing is a great way to learn the car and develop your skills. If someone were to show up in an Elise with a Stage 2 I suppose it should go into prepared or mod class (not sure) which are not really for street cars at all. The cars are often not even that recognizable any more. Like cars with the doors made inoperative. Heck most high level SP cars are not driven on the street any more, and some appear to be unstreetable. It's easy to change out the diffuser if someone wanted to borrow one to avoid a weanie protest.
 

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Stan said:
You might be being a bit rigid and impractical here Jay.
Uhhh, no. You're just reading things into my response that I didn't say.

Most folks are not trying to win tightly contested National titles where such minutiae are important.
Please show me where I said otherwise.
folks should NOT stay away from an event because they have a Lotus Stage 2 exhaust on the car.
Please show me where I said they should.
I think that autocrossing is a great way to learn the car and develop your skills.
You're preaching to the choir here, Stan. Been doing it steadily since 1988.

If someone were to show up in an Elise with a Stage 2 I suppose it should go into prepared or mod class (not sure)
A Prepared.

which are not really for street cars at all.
If there actually ARE any cars entered in A Prepared at the event.

Please read my previous post. I quote:

"I did not say I would protest it.

I did not say "I don't think you should run SP if you've done this."

I just answered the question. Correctly."

Had the question been, "Should I enter SP in a local event if I have a Stage 2 exhaust?" My answer would have been different. That, however, was not the question. I chose to answer the question that was asked. You're answering something else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
It seems like we had the same discussion recently... only that this time my thread got hijacked. ;)

I still don't understand why rules should be less important at a local event. I lost a regional event by 0.002s a few weeks ago, which cost me a chance at a season championship. A week later, I was behind 0.005s before the last run (eventually ended up on 3rd place, 0.05s behind the winner). Local events can get very close, and I don't see why anybody should get an advantage by using illegal modifications.
 

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ConeFusion said:
It seems like we had the same discussion recently... only that this time my thread got hijacked. ;)

I still don't understand why rules should be less important at a local event.
It is a reflection (IMO) of the understanding that local-only competitors may not be as serious (though they certainly CAN be) and so they may not follow the less significant parts of the rules.

However, even locally, I tell people - "run in class with the wrong size rims, with that extra wing on the back, etc. But once you start to win? Then you need to think about that."

I feel that if someone is not that serious about winning and following the rules, than by the same token, I don't know why they would mind runing in A Prepared.

But I certainly understand and support the reasoning behind rules that would not allow you to modify the diffuser, and on the other hand, feel certain there is no significant peformance advantage if you did.
 

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aletes said:
but I could care less about the competition aspect of the events. I just like driving insanely fast through corners every chance I get.
Then I really don't understand why you would care about stock class rules. You can run in C-Street Prepared. A Prepared. Or A-MOD. And go as fast as you want in every corner without care for the competition aspect.

This is really not directed to you Aletes as much as it is to this very common post where people claim to not care about the competition, but also don't like stock rules. I have always been willing to run in any local class that works best for the time, even if it is A-MOD. And typically, you can find a local MOD or PREPARED class with no entrants.
 

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I want to stay in SS, so I do care about the rules. I just like competing against the Vettes! I'm glad we have this forum so that we all know the rules...
 

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>>> Local events can get very close, and I don't see why anybody should get an advantage by using illegal modifications.<<<

SCCA stock class cars are NOT stock. They have all sorts of mods that are allowed under the stock class rules. The trimmed diffuser for the larger sized Stage 2 exhaust tips is not advantageous to performance at all. Any performance change comes from the many pounds of exhaust that was cut, and a possible few extra ponies, neither of which require different exhaust tips. The larger tips on a Stage 2 are bling-bling. We are talking about something like 10 grams of mass or thereabouts, and most cars don;t have diffusers. And there are many pounds of exhaust weight that can still be "legally" removed. If you lost by a few thousandths it was not the diffuser cutout that did it.

A prepared, eh, for a diffuser trim? A lot of those cars are massively prepared and don't even have windshields anymore. Again, bear in mind that very few cars have diffusers. If the Elise had no diffuser this would not even be an issue!

It's true what the SCCA rules say per Jay. But it's also true that you don't have to stress out for local fun and you are not cheating per se. And it's the same issue if you remove a sunroof visor or put on a different side mirror, quick releases for the diffuser, many other things. You can't do things like that to National level autocross cars.

The SCCA loses about 25% of it's membership per year. There are a number of reasons for this constant turnover. There are also different rules than what the SCCA uses. Not all clubs use their rules, some have their own or reinterpret them.

I'm looking into some dampers right now for the Elise and may wind up with more wheel travel, different droop amounts, different spring preload and so forth. These can improve performance and yet significantly DEVIATE from stock. But they never the less meet SCCA "stock" rules. I'll simply use the rules to come up with good things for the car within the allowed options but I do think the rule needs another look and some revision. Again, they won't be near stock for "stock" class and this is okay. Other shock details that don't affect performance at all must conform exactly. Okay, fine.
 

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Here are some PICs of SCCA Prepared class cars which an Elise with a Stage 2 exhaust must run against at National (but not local) events. These cars are not road legal, are missing all sorts of things, have had lots of new things added, cannot be driven on the street, can't be insured or financed and are trailer queens.

The SCCA loses about 15,000 members per year - lots of turnover! I think this figure could be improved with the application of some common sense.





 

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The classification rules are there only for people who care about competition. The only rules you have to follow in order to participate are the safety rules.

If you really don't care about the competition, it seems like a waste of time to insult the people who wrote the rules.

If you want rules other than the ones in the SCCA rulebook, you can get the people you compete with together and create your own informal rule set. Maybe you can even convince your local club to make it official. If your ideas are brilliant enough, they could end up getting adopted at the national level.

But first, you must do a better job of writing the rules than a sixth grader. Best of luck.
 

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aletes said:
Thanks for the info, but please don't lump me (or my post) in with one of your stereotypes.
I have no idea what you mean by that. I asked a question. ????

Let me repeat. I often don't care at local events, so then I just run in any class I can, even if its prepared or mod. If someone does not care, then the stock class rules should not matter. What am I missing?
 

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May be I misunderstood the intent of this statement ...

"... this very common post where people claim to not care about the competition, but also don't like stock rules."

After reading your entire post a few times it is hard to tell if you are just letting me know I can go have fun in a particular class and not worry about protests or if you were implying something else.

Anyway, let's let this thread go back to the original topic about SP classing.
 
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