[Randy Chase]

More to follow...

 

[OneFastLotus]

Im not sure I like the Mr2 connotation. People are already telling saying, lol, so you're paying $40,000 for an Mr2? I know that I know better, but it still bothers me somewhat.

 

[Parli80]

Hey take a look at the fender it has a little open space near the it looks like for a sidemarker. Are they going to put some sort of red sidemarker? Im not to thrilled about that.

 

[Arno]

Image seems to be from one of the very early engine test mules.

It even still has the holes in the rear grille from the euro exhaust setup, a 'hacked up' diffuser and loads of residue from duct-tape on the bodywork for wires

Bye, Arno.

 

[jml1952]

Im not sure I like the Mr2 connotation. People are already telling saying, lol, so you're paying $40,000 for an Mr2? I know that I know better, but it still bothers me somewhat.

I'm with you. Seems unnecessary to lead the article by calling the Elise the ultimate Toyota MR2. It might have made sense if the engine came from the MR2, but it's from a Celica. I suppose we should be grateful that he didn't call the Elise the ultimate Toyota Celica!: mad:

 

[Randy Chase]

Funny how there was some indignation on the MR2 forums.

I think we should considered the typical market of Sports Compact Car when reading that.

 

[L8BRAKR]

That arcticle was written by Alistair Weaver so it should be the same as the European Car article.

 

[FederalElise]

I think it's also because the MR2 weighs less than 2200 lbs. Strip some interior/AC/convertible top and it might be the same weight.

If the MR2 wasn't so ugly, had 2ZZ engine in it, and priced right, I might pick it over the Elise. Since it'll come with Toyota reliability and access to Toyota dealers for warrenty repairs

 

[_JD_]

That arcticle was written by Alistair Weaver so it should be the same as the European Car article.

Just read it at Borders during lunch, and it's basically the same article as EC, but shuffled a bit and with a couple new photos.

 

[John Stimson]

Well, that's really what it is, isn't it? At least, from the perspective of a group who knows all about MR2s and nothing about Lotuses.

It's a lightweight mid-engined car with a targa top, and uses a variant of the engine that's used in the current generation of MR2. Sounds kind of like what a hardcore MR2 fan would put together if Toyota gave them a blank check to build whatever they wanted. Doesn't it?

In the same sense, if Lotus were to build a new RWD Elan and use a tweaked-out version of the Miata's 1.8L engine (not likely, it's a heavy engine) or perhaps the aluminum 2.3L used in the Protege (and expected to be used in the next-gen Miata), then SCC would rightly declare it to be "the ultimate Miata". And it would be just desserts for all the years that British roadster fans have had to put up with the Miata being called "the ultimate British roadster"...

 

[Randy Chase]

Exactly John.

In reading this article, we now have a new weight number.

1985 pounds.

Three articles in two weeks, three different weights.

 

[Derek]

Well, that's really what it is, isn't it? At least, from the perspective of a group who knows all about MR2s and nothing about Lotuses.

It's a lightweight mid-engined car with a targa top, and uses a variant of the engine that's used in the current generation of MR2. Sounds kind of like what a hardcore MR2 fan would put together if Toyota gave them a blank check to build whatever they wanted. Doesn't it?

In the same sense, if Lotus were to build a new RWD Elan and use a tweaked-out version of the Miata's 1.8L engine (not likely, it's a heavy engine) or perhaps the aluminum 2.3L used in the Protege (and expected to be used in the next-gen Miata), then SCC would rightly declare it to be "the ultimate Miata". And it would be just desserts for all the years that British roadster fans have had to put up with the Miata being called "the ultimate British roadster"...

So does this mean an Aston Martin is the ultimate Mustang? I guess the Porsche 911 is the ultimate Beetle? This of course would make the Enzo the ultimate Fiat? The fun continues, AC Cobras are second to ultimate Mustangs, McClaren F1s are ultimate BMW M1s.

The fact is a car can only be an ultimate model of the Brand that made it. You could say the Vanquish is the ultimate Aston Martin but never the ultimate Mustang (Keep in mind that Ford now owns Aston Martin). It’s not a Mustang, it’s not a Ford, it’s an Aston Martin. Heck it wouldn’t even be right to call a Porsche GT1 the ultimate Boxster, they are different models, even though they are made by the same company.

This is why I have a problem with them calling any Lotus the ultimate (pick your model) Toyota. These cars were developed totally independent of one another. The Toyota engine was added long after the car was designed and in production.

Frankly I would not pay $40k plus for the Elise if it was the ultimate MR2. It would have been dismissed long ago (regardless of what miracles it can perform on the track) and I would have a shiny new Boxster S sitting in my garage right now.

I’m not a total badge snob, but no way am I paying $40k for a Toyota MR2, people would think I was an idiot and I would have to agree.

Some of you will no doubt not see my point. If this is you, I point out that a new MR2 can be had for less than half the price of a Liz. I’m sure that the money you would save would be ample to cover the cost of the upgrades needed to get similar performance out of the MR2. So if you really can’t see my point, do the right thing and drop off the list and snatch up an MR2 posthaste.


Ultimate MR2

 

[babak]

Hear hear,

 

[LarryB]

It's the title of a article written in a mag geared towards the Japanese import crowd. As John has pointed out in that context there is a loose connection. Wouldn't take it too literally. I'm a long time owner of a upgraded MkII MR2 Turbo, the Elise will be my ultimate MR2 and the '2 will become my new luxury car.

 

[Derek]

It's the title of a article written in a mag geared towards the Japanese import crowd. As John has pointed out in that context there is a loose connection. Wouldn't take it too literally. I'm a long time owner of a upgraded MkII MR2 Turbo, the Elise will be my ultimate MR2 and the '2 will become my new luxury car.

Great then, it would appear that my last statement applies to you. If you really see the Liz as nothing more than "THE ULTIMATE MR2" then I guess you'll be dropping off the list? Please post what dealer you have your deposit at so a nonbeliever can jump on, and others can move up

 

[LarryB]

Geez, didn't realize Elise ownership was a cult. Interested in a high performance sports car, really don't care if it's a Lotus or Toyota. Hardly think I need to fit someone's image of a "true believer" in how I spend my money.

 

[Randy Chase]

Like it or not, it uses a Toyota drivetrain. Add in that it is a lightweight midengined roadster, I can see the comparison.

P.S. The 200hp turbo MR2 was around $40k in 1995. Not that it matters.

If this is you, I point out that a new MR2 can be had for less than half the price of a Liz. I’m sure that the money you would save would be ample to cover the cost of the upgrades needed to get similar performance out of the MR2.

Not really. This is something that keeps being stated by some present Spyder owners (and some Miata owners). They can dump $15k into the $25k Spyder and have the same thing.

That misses a lot of detail. For example...

The present Spyder is 2200 pounds using a stamped steel unibody construction. But wait, that engine/drivetrain is not the same. Take out the present Spyder engine and drop in the Celica. Now how much does it weigh? 2250 pounds? How are you going to remove over 250 pounds from the car and still have it streetable?

The basic thing is the difference in construction and bodies. No matter what you did to the Spyder, it's a flexi-flyer compared to the Elise. It's not a bonded and extruded 155 pound aluminum frame.

And that ignores styling and other details too.

These are the reasons I am buying the Elise, and it's not just because it has a Lotus badge on it. It could say Kia on it, or Proton. Whatever... it's about the performance. Don't get me wrong, I like that it is Lotus. But that is not my reason for buying it. If the deal was reversed and Toyota went to Lotus and said, we have a new car we want to take to the USA. Here is the engine and tranny. Can you supply the body and suspension? That would then have been a Toyota Elise. So what?

 

[Derek]

Geez, didn't realize Elise ownership was a cult. Interested in a high performance sports car, really don't care if it's a Lotus or Toyota. Hardly think I need to fit someone's image of a "true believer" in how I spend my money.

Look, you’re only convincing yourself of the "I don't care what brand it is" argument.

If you really don't care: Buy another MR2, stripe it out, add upgrades and bingo!

If you do care about brand: Deal with, and stay on the list.

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that if you say brand doesn’t matter but yet insist on staying on the list that you really don’t believe your own statement.

Relax, there’s no need to be a self-righteous "politically correct" person here.

 

[LarryB]

Derek- you take this matter alot more seriously, then I do. I'll leave it at that...

 

[Derek]

Like it or not, it uses a Toyota drivetrain. Add in that it is a lightweight midengined roadster, I can see the comparison.

P.S. The 200hp turbo MR2 was around $40k in 1995. Not that it matters.



Not really. This is something that keeps being stated by present Spyder owners (and some Miata owners). They can dump $15k into the $25k Spyder and have the same thing.

That misses a lot of detail.

Your point? Pagani Zonda uses a Mercedes Engine and Drive-train... Is it a Mercedes? Same kind of condition for an AC Cobra... Was it a Mustang? Lots of cars share parts, but a Lotus can only be considered an "Ultimate" Lotus not a Vauxhall, not a GM, not a Toyota "anything". If a Lotus is to be considered an “Ultimate” of a brand the only brand that can logically qualify is Lotus… and that's it.