Spring Nats/Lincoln Tour?
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Moving the Corvettes to AS certainly did not help.
The Corvettes got moved down a class for Super Street - seems that someone convinced the SEB that the Corvettes lose a class' worth of performance by going from Hoosiers to 200tw tires.
I've been told that the logic behind it is twofold - can't put power down & braking.
OK. I guess I buy the braking one - but that affects _all_ cars. Putting power down? ehhh, sure, I guess - but again, that affects all of us.
I've driven more than a few SS Corvettes on street tires - some on "the" street tires, some on _actual_ STREET tires, IE, not what you'd try to win at an autocross with. All of them put power down fine.
FWIW, every time I've driven a Corvette in the past few years, it has been on an autocross course - not putzing around on the street postulating about autocross stuff.
One thing I think they failed to consider is the peakiness of the Lotus. We can put power down mostly just fine on street or R-tires - in a perfect world, we have 190hp.
Thing is, worlds are not often perfect, and we spend a lot of time below 6200rpm - where we have what, 130hp? 150? A whole lot less?
I'm still gathering data.
The Lotus is fast at autocrosses because it is light, not because it is powerful. Above 6200, it is decently quick.
Switching from Hoosiers to 200tw (or, in my case, 140, for this year), our overall corner speeds are lower - just like the Corvettes. HOWEVER, we're THAT much farther from VVTI once we CAN get back on the throttle - the Corvettes still have more power than their rear tires can deal with.
I'm working on the wording, but basically, I'm trying to build a cohesive argument for re-uniting the Lotus with the Corvette - SS or AS, I don't care. Yes, the Corvette loses something going to slower tires, but so does the Lotus.
We're getting decent data here - locally, we have a known-quantity pair of guys in a SS-now-AS Corvette - not SUPER fast, but they don't suck. My Elise is set up well, and I'm driving it at local events with a guy who has 6 national championships. I don't suck. Neither does he. It is not adding up.
So...yeah. That's kinda what I'm thinking. SS was attractive to me BECAUSE of the Corvettes - big, popular car, lots of people, lots of competition. Moving them to AS ruined it.
I personally have come to like street tires. I could buy Hoosiers and go to SSR, ehhh, I don't really _want_ to do that.
We had a local event on Saturday - my local "AS" benchmark got me by .3 seconds. This was on a course that did not strike my as "lotus unfriendly." Wenzel ran the car in the 2nd heat, and got the AS benchmark by .1. Course may have improved, may not - kinda doubt it - watching his runs, he was picking up .2 or .3 in the first turn alone.
So...yeah. I'd like to see the Corvette put back with the Elise, personally. Anyone else?
Iain
The Corvettes got moved down a class for Super Street - seems that someone convinced the SEB that the Corvettes lose a class' worth of performance by going from Hoosiers to 200tw tires.
I've been told that the logic behind it is twofold - can't put power down & braking.
OK. I guess I buy the braking one - but that affects _all_ cars. Putting power down? ehhh, sure, I guess - but again, that affects all of us.
I've driven more than a few SS Corvettes on street tires - some on "the" street tires, some on _actual_ STREET tires, IE, not what you'd try to win at an autocross with. All of them put power down fine.
FWIW, every time I've driven a Corvette in the past few years, it has been on an autocross course - not putzing around on the street postulating about autocross stuff.
One thing I think they failed to consider is the peakiness of the Lotus. We can put power down mostly just fine on street or R-tires - in a perfect world, we have 190hp.
Thing is, worlds are not often perfect, and we spend a lot of time below 6200rpm - where we have what, 130hp? 150? A whole lot less?
I'm still gathering data.
The Lotus is fast at autocrosses because it is light, not because it is powerful. Above 6200, it is decently quick.
Switching from Hoosiers to 200tw (or, in my case, 140, for this year), our overall corner speeds are lower - just like the Corvettes. HOWEVER, we're THAT much farther from VVTI once we CAN get back on the throttle - the Corvettes still have more power than their rear tires can deal with.
I'm working on the wording, but basically, I'm trying to build a cohesive argument for re-uniting the Lotus with the Corvette - SS or AS, I don't care. Yes, the Corvette loses something going to slower tires, but so does the Lotus.
We're getting decent data here - locally, we have a known-quantity pair of guys in a SS-now-AS Corvette - not SUPER fast, but they don't suck. My Elise is set up well, and I'm driving it at local events with a guy who has 6 national championships. I don't suck. Neither does he. It is not adding up.
So...yeah. That's kinda what I'm thinking. SS was attractive to me BECAUSE of the Corvettes - big, popular car, lots of people, lots of competition. Moving them to AS ruined it.
I personally have come to like street tires. I could buy Hoosiers and go to SSR, ehhh, I don't really _want_ to do that.
We had a local event on Saturday - my local "AS" benchmark got me by .3 seconds. This was on a course that did not strike my as "lotus unfriendly." Wenzel ran the car in the 2nd heat, and got the AS benchmark by .1. Course may have improved, may not - kinda doubt it - watching his runs, he was picking up .2 or .3 in the first turn alone.
So...yeah. I'd like to see the Corvette put back with the Elise, personally. Anyone else?
Iain
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I haven't had the same experiences as you. First off non of our good drivers corvette drivers are on street tires, but back when I was just getting started me and one particular corvette were always neck and neck with r comps. We both did one event on street tires and I put 1.7 seconds on him. Neither of us were great drivers but we were always close. Same with wet events I kill the vettes with the lower grip of the wet. Im not saying your wrong but I personally don't see or haven't seen a vette keep up on street tires.
I desperately want some competition. I've thought about getting rid of my car and going down a class or 2, going back to r comps, all kind of things because this is no fun by yourself. I was thinking of proposing having the SS and SSR cars in one class with an adjustment factor for street tires.
I'll see if I can find where strano and a few of his buddies did a test to see if a c5 base corvette would be competitive in STU. That would be some good data.
I desperately want some competition. I've thought about getting rid of my car and going down a class or 2, going back to r comps, all kind of things because this is no fun by yourself. I was thinking of proposing having the SS and SSR cars in one class with an adjustment factor for street tires.
I'll see if I can find where strano and a few of his buddies did a test to see if a c5 base corvette would be competitive in STU. That would be some good data.
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C5s in STU? - SCCAForums.com - SCCA Racing Discussions - Sports Car Club of America - Racing Discussion Forums - SOLO / Autocross - Street Classes
Can't find the Facebook page with results of the strano/newman STU test but here is another forum post about it.
Can't find the Facebook page with results of the strano/newman STU test but here is another forum post about it.
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There are going to be a lot of MACers there. Not me, though.
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Don't go anywhere just yet, jerk. =P
Clam just went back on today. We now have the rest of the season to rumble.
And I'm sad the vette's went away too. We haven't had anyone worth a crap in vettes on street tires in our region to make any valid comparisons on whether they can keep up or not. I agree, less grip == more time that our car is just a beautiful miata with the engine in the proper place.
On street tires in general, I wish Sam would stfu and quit scaring the people that don't know any better and listen to him away though.
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Locally I'm not going anywhere, its way cheaper and less hassle to run street tires and there is plenty of competition in our Pro class. I was talking about national competitions, you need 3 in a class to get contingencies, a "real" trophy, or get your name published etc. As it is now SS is have a real hard time coming up with that--something needs to change.
How was the Match Tour?
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Cold and rainy. And no one knows how the f they work, even now. We're calling them "Math" Tours from here on out.
It sucked sitting around in the rain, waiting, not really knowing what was going on. But it was a lot of fun to drive. We got the 4 class runs Saturday. And I ended up getting into the losers bracket ("Club" shootout) Sunday and got 8 runs total. I'd do another one here, but I wouldn't travel for one.
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The Math tour was fun. I even helped in the timing trailer with the math. Me and turblow battled it out both days, staying pretty close to each other. I didn't make the Super shootout by .020, uggh, then I barely made it in as the 16th seed to the Club shootout.
Even though it was rainy and cold it was fun, but I would much rather prefer a dry race.
Yes, wet both days. Interesting & frustrating at the same time. I ran new Hankooks on Saturday night on the practice course, really liked the tires, think I went fairly fast, with what times I could get from other people. Left them on for Sunday/day1 of the Tour. Got up at 6, walked a couple of times, then it RAINED.
Drying conditions throughout the heat. The Hankook RS3v2 is pretty good in the wet, I think, but not a Toyo. I felt like I drove OK Sunday. Not great, not bad.
It rained all night Monday. Again, drying conditions, maybe a bit wetter than Sunday morning, but similar. Did not drive well - could not remember/see the course for my first two runs, third was...eh. Not great. Toyos are certainly better in those conditions (4/32", still pretty new).
Interesting event. Good to get some wet practice. Still have no idea how tires are - the forecast did not suggest Sunday morning was going to be a deluge (or Monday, for that matter).
I made a lot of changes before the Tour - I think they're good. Car was very good - not perfect, but good - on the practice course SatPM; the last local event, I could not put power down, balance felt ok, but sloooow. So, I toed it in a lot at the rear, couple of other little things. Overall, changes were good - it was good in the dry.
In the wet, it felt exactly the same as it did in the dry before the changes - not bad balance, but power-on oversteer was an ISSUE. That and random damp spots - there were sections on both days that were 95% dry, you could actually DRIVE the car, but there were little sneaky no-grip bits sprinkled in - as soon as I got some momentum, car was feeling ok, holycrapcorrect. Not confidence inspiring.
I easily left a second out on Monday. Easily. I literally could not remember the course (unusual for me, not sure what was going on) on my first run. I can normally at least remember general direction - there's a _____ after _____ feature or whatever. Not Monday - was like driving a course with no walks at all, and with wet and shiny, uhhh, where am I going? 3rd run I had a decent idea - my 3rd felt like a first run. I did walk it a few times, but for whatever reason, blanked. Strange.
So....I learned about Hankooks and Toyos in rain. I learned that I like the Hankook in the dry, and comparing to STX, I was doing OK. Not GREAT, but yeah, right track.
Mixed feelings about it. First day, I drove pretty-ok, but compared to CSP/STS/other cars in the heat, uhhhh, wtf? Are Toyos REALLY that much _faster_ in the wet? They do feel a lot BETTER...hrmmm.
so, yeah, dunno. Glad I went. Wish it had been dry. Changes to the car seem good. Local event this weekend. This car is difficult to make fast, as far as I can tell.
Iain
Drying conditions throughout the heat. The Hankook RS3v2 is pretty good in the wet, I think, but not a Toyo. I felt like I drove OK Sunday. Not great, not bad.
It rained all night Monday. Again, drying conditions, maybe a bit wetter than Sunday morning, but similar. Did not drive well - could not remember/see the course for my first two runs, third was...eh. Not great. Toyos are certainly better in those conditions (4/32", still pretty new).
Interesting event. Good to get some wet practice. Still have no idea how tires are - the forecast did not suggest Sunday morning was going to be a deluge (or Monday, for that matter).
I made a lot of changes before the Tour - I think they're good. Car was very good - not perfect, but good - on the practice course SatPM; the last local event, I could not put power down, balance felt ok, but sloooow. So, I toed it in a lot at the rear, couple of other little things. Overall, changes were good - it was good in the dry.
In the wet, it felt exactly the same as it did in the dry before the changes - not bad balance, but power-on oversteer was an ISSUE. That and random damp spots - there were sections on both days that were 95% dry, you could actually DRIVE the car, but there were little sneaky no-grip bits sprinkled in - as soon as I got some momentum, car was feeling ok, holycrapcorrect. Not confidence inspiring.
I easily left a second out on Monday. Easily. I literally could not remember the course (unusual for me, not sure what was going on) on my first run. I can normally at least remember general direction - there's a _____ after _____ feature or whatever. Not Monday - was like driving a course with no walks at all, and with wet and shiny, uhhh, where am I going? 3rd run I had a decent idea - my 3rd felt like a first run. I did walk it a few times, but for whatever reason, blanked. Strange.
So....I learned about Hankooks and Toyos in rain. I learned that I like the Hankook in the dry, and comparing to STX, I was doing OK. Not GREAT, but yeah, right track.
Mixed feelings about it. First day, I drove pretty-ok, but compared to CSP/STS/other cars in the heat, uhhhh, wtf? Are Toyos REALLY that much _faster_ in the wet? They do feel a lot BETTER...hrmmm.
so, yeah, dunno. Glad I went. Wish it had been dry. Changes to the car seem good. Local event this weekend. This car is difficult to make fast, as far as I can tell.
Iain
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111 Posts
I'm right there with you, I can't explain what is going on with my driving lately. I've hit a plateau. It kinda clicked the other day for me, I am not pushing every corner or every part of the course, I pick a few areas to push hard or work on from the previous laps and then I do the other parts good but not great.
I also had a problem in the wet conditions putting down the power. Not confidence inspiring at all. Day 1 of the Atlanta Match tour the finish was fast and fun, Day 2 in the wet it was just scary.
How do the RS3s feel first run out (dry with no heat in them) are they as greasy as the old RS3s? I've never run either of them but I've heard its basically trying to not spin your first lap or two until you get some heat in them.
I also had a problem in the wet conditions putting down the power. Not confidence inspiring at all. Day 1 of the Atlanta Match tour the finish was fast and fun, Day 2 in the wet it was just scary.
How do the RS3s feel first run out (dry with no heat in them) are they as greasy as the old RS3s? I've never run either of them but I've heard its basically trying to not spin your first lap or two until you get some heat in them.
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111 Posts
Nick right? I met you and Brandon at the Dixie tour this year. Why are you wanting to get rid of the car? I thought you just got it? For your first event out, especially on the second day you were running with the top of the pack in SSR, I was impressed and jealous I didn't have my car there.
You too! Good to put faces with names.
I really like the car, but geez, I'm not having good luck with it. Yet. I'm persistent.
Don't sell it...too much fun.
Iain
The RS3v2s felt great first run. Mine were brand new, unshaved, ~5 miles on the street before it went in the trailer.
First run on the practice course, I instantly liked them. ~3 seconds off my best, but no walks + vague idea of where I was going, no complaints. They never got hot (we did about 14 runs, the last of which were back to back), felt good cold, shrug, I like them.
They ARE a little skaty on cool-ish and damp concrete - the Toyo "feels" softer/more stuck to the surface, but they were nowhere NEAR "bad." I think the Toyo is faster in the wet, but that won't matter next year.
So - yeah, the v2s seem good right off the bat AND don't seem to care about heat - we got them hotter than we would at a normal event, no greasy feeling, times did not drop. I got to my fastest practice course time in about 4 runs, some runs were slower, but there was always a good reason for it - no "huh, that SEEMED like a better run" times.
I like them. Currently at the top of my list for next year. Planning on doing the rest of this year on Toyos, although if they start wearing a lot, I'll beat on the Hankooks instead - if I don't have to buy another set of Toyos, I'd not mind.
Iaion
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