The Lotus Cars Community banner

1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,895 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Some owners want to convince us and themselves, but there is no evidence that doesn't show the RR/LR as anything but horrid.

Latest example:

Our 2018 Range Rover Velar Was Not the Luxury Experience We Had Hoped For
Despite its fetching design, Range Rover's compact luxury SUV was a hotbed of frustration and unreliability over 40,000 miles.

40,000-Mile Wrap-Up
That the logbook for our long-term 2018 Range Rover Velar has been essentially devoid of comments and service records since our last update at 33,000 miles is an unusual development for a vehicle that regularly rankled our staff with frustrations and reliability issues. Our most significant takeaway from that lack of ink after spending 40,000 miles with Range Rover's stylish compact luxury ute is that our example simply had overstayed its welcome.

In fairness, our Range Rover's massive 16,000-mile scheduled service intervals were partly at fault for the tapering off of activity in its logbook. During its stay, the Velar required just two basic oil changes and inspections, totaling $461. The additional cost of certain ancillary charges related to those dealer visits, such as a hefty $187 to have three new wiper blades installed, furthered our appreciation for the Range Rover's modest level of (expected) upkeep. A $50 expenditure to patch several stone chips in the Velar's windshield is the only new line item we have to report.

Highs: Fetching exterior design, handsomely high-tech cabin, relatively spacious for its class.


Alas, our long-termer visited the dealership more than we'd like, including stopping for a recall-related warranty replacement of a leaking fuel rail on its turbo 2.0-liter inline-four and to fix (also under warranty) a broken wire in the control unit of its telematics system, which immobilized the vehicle in a staffer's driveway, necessitating a tow. Yet those are only the issues that we officially reported to the service department. We can just imagine how many days out of use the Velar would've logged had we asked the service techs to chase down every intermittent warning light, electronic glitch, and powertrain hiccup that seemingly came and went at random throughout most of its time with us. A software update installed around 27,000 miles largely cured the Velar's dual-screen InControl Touch Pro Duo infotainment tablets of their propensity to freeze up and reboot while driving, but by then, the damage to our confidence and patience had already been done.
Not that the Velar had trouble eliciting opinions when it was working properly. Few drivers could deny its swanky presentation when pulling up to the curb or the upscale trappings of its high-tech cabin. Its toasty seat and steering-wheel heaters, as well as a heated and solar attenuating windshield, put it in high demand when winter storms rolled through town. And its decent size and easygoing demeanor made it a relatively capacious and capable member of the compact luxury SUV class.


Lows: Electronic glitches galore, lazy powertrain responses, obtuse infotainment system, cheap seats for $67K.

Conversely, it simply is unacceptable for an as-tested $67,235 luxury vehicle to not come standard with basic lumbar adjustment for its front seats (we would have had to pay an additional $3050 for the privilege on our mid-range P250 R-Dynamic SE model). The activation of the Ingenium four-cylinder's stop-start system shook the vehicle like an old-timey diesel engine. In practice, the Velar's touchscreen control surfaces make for a slow and clumsy arrangement even when operating as they should. And the relatively sluggish responses of the turbo four engine, coupled with Range Rover's relaxed calibration of the eight-speed automatic transmission, made our Velar less than graceful when asked to do anything quickly.

While it was not the most prolific road tripper in our long-term fleet, the Velar still managed to regularly stretch its legs throughout Michigan, as well as on voyages to Pittsburgh, Virginia, and Kentucky. Which made its 22-mpg average fuel economy—1 mpg less than its EPA combined estimate—all the more of a letdown. Dynamically, at 40,000 miles, the Velar's stopping distance from 70 mph improved by five feet, to 169 feet, versus when new, and its modest grip around the skidpad dropped a negligible 0.02 g to 0.82 g. More significant is that, despite its zero-to-60-mph time only slowing by a tenth, to 7.3 seconds during final testing, at 40,000 miles, the Velar needed nearly a second longer to accelerate from 50 to 70 mph (6.0 seconds) and almost two seconds longer to reach 100 mph (22.0 seconds). g: Not a good long-term sign, is it??

Looks can only go so far, and had we to conduct this test all over again, we may opt for one of the Velar's more powerful and expensive models powered by a supercharged V-6 or V-8. Yet, the mix of better-performing and better-functioning luxury alternatives at those versions' even higher price points is as thick as concrete. While our perseverance for informative reporting kept the Range Rover Velar in our garage for far longer than we imagine many buyers would tolerate, a pretty face or not, we don't miss it now that it's gone.

 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,895 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
CR auto issue arrived. All Rover cars had terrible reliability records.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,933 Posts
I'm calling BS . My 2016 RRS , has had a few O2 sensors changed ...and serviced. Nothing else! Sorry you don' t like them but....Amazing how many rag drivers have problenms....IMHO its not theirs and they just beat on everything and are very biased, doesn't matter the mag
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,895 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
You realize that your sampling of one cannot be extrapolated upon, right?

Thousands of ppl respond to CR survey.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
64 Posts
They want everything to be special, unique, high-quality, even if – ultimately – that low-volume “specialness” is probably the major reason Range Rovers are so unreliable. Many Land Rover Discovery 3 & 4 reliability issues stem from air suspension failures, Electronic park brake failures, and the dreaded crank-shaft seizures. Given each brand has its faults, and to be fair some are more prone to dependability issues than others. Land Rover owners are for the most part die-hard fans.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,895 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I remember reading an article about rebels in Africa or S America. They all switch to Land Cruisers, being quite frightened of their LRs stranding them (and getting the killed).
 

·
Administrator
2010 Exige S260
Joined
·
2,214 Posts
What is the reliable alternative? A Jeep?? My favorite is the 4-Runner :D
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,895 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
4Runner is a solid truck with great safety test #s.
 

·
2006 Exige
Joined
·
727 Posts
You can reliably say they will break down sometime...

I had an '04 Disco II from 2012-2017 (175k miles when sold) and another '04 Disco II from 2017-today with 155k miles on it.

Both have been reliable for me even with the occasional off road adventure. The view from the driver's seat is A+ and it does surprisingly well offroad. And for reference, I've had everything from Hummer H1 to modded Jeep to Excursion on 40's with lockers.

With all of that said though, I am still nervous about a big breakdown leaving me in the middle of the desert. The good news is they are cheap to buy. Bad news is 12MPG on premium gas.

What TopGear said about the 2004 Discovery II: "Deals with muck and mountains better than any LR before, drives better on-road than any SUV.” That is high praise.

I think the newer Range Rovers can be compared to McLarens. They are great to own and drive; just make sure you have the extended warranty.

Pics of my Discos:

1262973

1262974
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
339 Posts
I’ve owned both a Discovery 1 and 2. The engine block in the D1 cracked in the AZ desert leaving me stranded. The cylinder liners started slipping in the D2, the rear diff blew up in Moab leaving me stranded, and the crank position sensor failed in Colorado leaving me stranded yet again.

I bought a Toyota Land Cruiser and never looked back.
Here’s a pic of the D2 in its natural habitat :)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,895 Posts
Discussion Starter #11


 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,185 Posts
Let’s talk Rovers. Rover cars.

When I started making my own money, the very first car I bought myself was a 1980 Rover SD1. Loved that car. Beautiful design, some say inspired per the Ferrari Daytona. Classic 3500 V8. Little Union Jacks behing the front wheels.

This could go on by chapters but let’s just say that despite a lot of effort and time and money, there was no way on this earth to keep it going. My fav was that when I stopped at a light, if I could not see oil smole wafting from under the bonnet, I was out of oil.

Eventually I found someone to take it off my hands. Like ten years of strife later. I wanted no money, he gave me a box of doughnuts though.

When we went to Goodwood Festival of Speed, I was looking forward to seeing some nice SD1s in the vast rolling hills of grassy parking lots. DID NOT SEE EVEN ONE. How was I supposed to keep one going over here when they could not over there?

We did have some great times together no doubt. Still enjoy running across a picture of one.

1262998
 
  • Like
Reactions: glb

·
Premium Member
2005 Elise LSS Saffron Yellow
Joined
·
811 Posts
The only Rover I've ever driven was a P reg Rover 400 saloon I rented from BCR for a trip to Derbyshire from London. Don't remember if it had the K engine or the T engine, but (when nearly new) it was a decent, if unexciting drive, which makes sense as the platform was pretty much all Honda but for the drivetrain. I was amused at the terrible reputation the car had with car people...

My college roomie was Land/Range Rover parts manager for Leith for a while - cured me of any interest in either of them ever.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,895 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I found a piece I wrote years ago:

British cars:

Britain had a chance to rule the sports car world after WWII.

But….

Their cars were out of date when designed. Cart-like suspension for just one example.

One might have assumed that Britain was a desert island based on how bad the cars performed in the wet. Leaks, terrible heaters, rust, rust, rust.

Some cars used cotton for wire insulation. A bit of salt water wicked up and down and soon the wire was exposed and corroding.

Did they not know or care that some countries use salt in winter?

Healeys were quite agricultural, as I like pointing out.

James May had 2 shows on BBC recently. Both were good. He discussed the Land Rover, which was copied from our Jeep, even down to the same wheelbase.

Some of the early Rovers were attractive, as were many British cars. MGA, MGB, Healey, Jag, etc were very good looking.

But, the Rovers were also very unreliable. May talked to a fellow with lots of experience in the (actual) field.

He said you can take a Rover into the bush, but if you want to get back out, use a Land Cruiser.

Yrs ago, I read about some jungle-based rebels. Their lives depended on the vehicles working. So, they gave up on the Rover and used Land Cruisers.
-----
When the Acura Legend was on sale, it was the most reliable car in the country.

The Brits built the Sterling on the same chassis with same drivetrain IIRC.

But, no surprise, the Sterling was the least reliable car on sale here.

The Sterling fell to the bottom of J.D. Power surveys, while ironically its twin, the Japanese-built Acura Legend, had enjoyed top rankings its first year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterling_(marque)

Lucas electrics hurt that car a lot. Geez, Lucas made so much crap for so many years, it was as if no one was minding the store (or warranty claims).

Most of the sports cars had but 2 fuses in a very small box. I imagined that someone added an extra zero to the work order and that the Brits were determined to use up the extra million before switching to some good alternative.

What (finally) made my Elan into a reliable car was, among other things, replacing Lucas stuff with parts that actually worked.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,933 Posts
Only reason I dumped my Evoque after 15 months was due to the GERMAN built ZF 9 speed tranny. BTW the same tranny that sucked in all the Acuras, Jeeps...etc. Worst tranny ever built in the early days.
So to broaden my sample/
1998 Jaguar XJ8....flawless, but only had 3 years and it was used...but still, changed oil. AIt had a certain charm to it.
2004 Jaguar XJ VDP. Owned for 10 years. Flawless. My sister drove it 3-4 more till the dumbass rear ended someone on the Merrit.
2012 Jaguar XK. Unfortunately only had it 6 months as my wife got run over in it by a psycho lady late for work in her Dodge ram pickup. Ripped RF corner right off mthe trucck. That car saved her life!! To be fair, i wasn't fond of the rear suspension setup but didn't have it long enough to sort out to my liking
3 Lotus all service only cars after the initial hit list ...cuse sandwich plate washer on elise after ~6-7 yrs.Defective steering rack (TRW on ?Evora?
Evoque had a major GERMAN flaw (can't blame them for shiTT!y german stuff. Hurt them badly with that model.
RRS is now 4 years in 46K, service except a few DIY O2 sensors.

My observation with the brand is many owners are pretty clueless and get taken for a ride over minor issues. Definitely less savvy than the BMW crowd. Tend to be more pompous whiny owners. Forums were pathetic..can you believe I got banned hehe. They couldn't handle the truth. I know many RR owners that have had few/no issues. My only issue with the RRS is the VERY firm ride on frost heaved roads. X5 absorbed that stuff way better. But no failing DEF tanks or exploding driveshafts on the RRS v the X5 which took 6 years to man up over their flaws. BMW did little to improve Land Rover reliability. It wasn't till FoMoCo did QC that things turned the corner just like with Jaguar. Maybe I'm just lucky, but then again, seems I'm always lucky with vehicles except for the Evoque with the tranny NO ONE could fix. They admitted they gave up trying to reprogram it...nothing worked. I( really have had VERYU few issues with vehicles over 40 years that wasn't my fault...like frying motor in my 82 Accord because I was so ruthless to it.
I stand by Range Rover for what it is. Just like Jaguar, the world thinks they are major upgrades compared to their german peers. This IS the public's perception I learned from years of feedback. And they feel more special and look more special.

Finally back to your title. Velar disappointed me . hated the touchscreen..hate all touchscreens. Have driven them as loaners. The P250 is the lease driver's ride for those that want the looks but can't afford the motor. P300 drivetrain is MUCH better. Just didn't wow me like the Stelvio does!! I see the before and after comments on performance and I can give you a million reason they differed. Different tires, brakes , gas, weather , road surface etc. That's why I haven't bothered with C&D EVER!!

You want reliable and cheap , by a Buick Enclave. wallowing, numb, slow, ponderous??comfortable for a Lazy Boy. Topshelf plasti wood. Boring. ....Laughable putting a 4runner in league with a RR. Leatherette just not the same. I do know quality wood, leather etc as I grew up knowing Kindle, Henredon, etc By now, you should know I defend my brands.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,895 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
I never said we (I) wanted reliable and cheap. What I DON'T want is unreliable and very expensive.

Glad your experiences weren't as bad as most owners, but - again - a few examples here and there prove nothing.

It's not like I haven't talked to owners. Not one of them was happy with the Rover.

Another survey:

Upon referring to information from J.D Power, reliability scores for Land Rover vehicles between 2007 and 2016 were less than encouraging. For eight years out of the total 10, the company scored less than average, managing to only reach a maximum of 2.5 out of 5, which is much lower than the industry average. In a second study conducted in 2016, The American data analytics company J.D. Power researched the average number of problems per 100 vehicles from multiple manufacturers. The average number of problems was 133 per 100 vehicles. The results for Land Rover were, unfortunately, much higher than expected, with the brand seeing 179 problems per 100 cars, just under 2 issues per vehicle.

When it comes to reliability, it appears that not much has actually changed for Land Rover. 2019 scores from ReliabilityIndex indicate that the manufacturer is still close to the bottom when compared to other carmakers. Land Rover earned a score of 308, which means it placed 36 in a list of 40 brands. Though Maserati is in clear last place with a score 774, this is not an impressive score for a popular manufacturer.
As well as earning a score of 308 and appearing in the bottom 5 of the ReliabilityIndex list of manufacturers, Land Rover also has a relatively high average repair cost of £452.58. The cost of repairs means that Land Rover comes in the bottom 10 when it comes to charges, in 31st place.

The figures from consumer magazine Which? aren’t that different from the figures reported by ReliabilityIndex. In their 2019 reliability survey, Land Rover landed at the bottom of the pile of manufacturers they reviewed.

Pretend if you like. I'm not buying it.
 

·
Registered
07 Exige S
Joined
·
1,572 Posts
Interesting. I heard the US mafia preferred Lincoln's over Cadillac's for the same reason. A more reliable workhorse. My never say die DD 1995 Lincoln Towncar is my own subjective testcase.

I also have the "Queen" of unreliable vehicles, Jaguar XJS v12 and the more I work on it the more reliable it is getting... Absolutely, nobody would want to put up with such a beast unless seeking that badge or tshirt of honour. People make jokes, put a v8 in it etc... yadda yadda, but I can tell you one thing, that car delivers on it's promises given the requisite constant gardening.

There is a element of luck and other variables with vehicles. Some are and some are not "drive and forget" cars. If that is what you seek, go Asian. If you want to roll down the mountains to the beaches of Carmel with your scarf blowing in the wind, you would choose something with panache, and part of that is the perceived ( and actual) financial wherewithal to keep such a vehicle on the road.

We have our own beloved addages for LOTUS vehicles reliability, but all I did was drive mine across the country and back, no issues.

When I know my XJS is ready I will try to beat that cannon ball run time to visit friends in California again! yes, I intend to drive across the country with it!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,933 Posts
Motard, that motor and esp that pre Ford era was the tail end of the nightmare zone for Jag. That you continue to work on that BEAUTIFUL machine is a testament to the love they instill in the owner. God bless you!!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Motard

·
Registered
07 Exige S
Joined
·
1,572 Posts
I studied like a mental patient until I realized I lucked out in that 1989 was the first year that they went with Digital ignition, It has it's own possible issues, but a mechanical ignition advance in the distributor with a tendency to freeze and one of the reasons that they are prone to fire is not one. If it had not fallen in my lap more or less I would have never ended up with it, but I spent 9 months front and back before I even attempted to start it. It sat 10 years because original owner was smart, then after he passed away some farm yahoo's tried to start it and it immediatly caught fire having original rubber hoses on the injectors. sat 7 more years... I have been somewhat logical on getting it back on the road, but even though purchace price may be cheap, that is the only thing that is. They are perhaps one of the greatest GT to hit the road. You can take apart this or that system due to flaws, but when everything is right, it is one of the most satisfying highway cars I have ever driven. Mine is black on black, wire rims, no sunroof, quad headlights. 33k miles Here is the before image... The after images are equally impressive in the opposite way. Getting it towed from Florida to Tennessee was hardest initial issue, once I found a parts car it was off to the races. To include upset GF with a paperweight of a car in exploded view in front of her house as I worked on it. Now it is garaged in North Carolina and I work on it every x weekend. Currently obsesses with getting those inboard rear brakes to work as well at AC so I am in the deep end of the pool right now.
1263678
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Top