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I just now have spent some time looking at this... Pretty cool:up:

CX- Wasn't it just 18 months ago that we were all putting together the Katana stuff? Now there's a friggin spreadsheet! LOL

Cheers,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter #43
Yeah i saw, like i didn't change it for the temp. sale of BWR some weeks ago, i didn't alter the $ because it's temp only, to avoid I need to keep track of this sheet weekly instead of the bi monthly exercise it's now. When would change the conclusion (that VF is best bang for buck for existing kist), I would adjust to make this clear to people but in this case the Katana even with $3,400 instead of $4,300 is still lagging behind VF in power and power per $.
For everybody who wants to see the exact impact, pls download spreadsheet (post #2 in this thread), alter the $ for the Katana and the rest is automically recalc'd.
 

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Are you sure its temporary, I can't imagine they'd increase it ?

I hope the VF II is going to be quite competitive, though i have no knowledge of the pricing since i'm not involved in that, the TVS is a more expensive supercharger than the MP62 (typically) and is typical with new generations, they tend to drop the prices on the old ones, so we might find the MP62 drops even more, which is going to be good.
 

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TVS

What are the differences btwn the TVS and the 62? Is it worth it to wait for the newer generation? Do you know if the TVS will fit the current manifolds in production?
 

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What are the differences btwn the TVS and the 62?

A lot. The TVS is the next generation of blower technology. It has a MUCH larger efficiency island than the 62. There's a bunch of info about it on Eaton's website

Is it worth it to wait for the newer generation?

Depends on who you ask and what your goals are:D It's a much higher horsepower option than the standard Katana and BWR kit so considerations need to be made for making the jump. The TVS kit will come with a fuel pump (which is annoying to replace), will need a clutch upgrade, etc, so it's a more involved installation than just bolting on one of the smaller whp kits and driving away. I think each has their place and user...

Do you know if the TVS will fit the current manifolds in production?

Yes. There's a kit (I make it:D) that adapts it to fit both BWR and Katana manifolds, and their will be upgrades kits available before too long to allow existing Katana/BWR users to upgrade if they choose. Pricing is still TBA:popcorn:
Best,

Phil
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Update!

OK, it was time for another update…I changed the following:

- All prices have been updated.

- The VF Stage II has been included.

- The VF Stage III (formerly the stage II) has been included in the table only without pricing. The Stage III has not been included in the graphs, again because pricing is unknown.

- The final price for the BOE TVS SC-kit has been included: $6,500 including wideband A/F meter and EFI ECU. Pls note that these two hardware components are NOT included in any of the other kits, so basically we now have two situations:
1. If you don’t care about having an EFI and/or A/F meter then the graphs will still work perfectly for you since the added value, when compared to the other kits, of these two components is zero for you.
2. If you do care about having these two items, than just looking at the graphs will not give you the full picture anymore because we’re comparing apples with oranges because the BOE TVS SC includes more hardware which you care about. Easiest would be to put a $-number what the EFI&A/F meter is worth to you and then deduct that from the cost of the BOE TVS SC kit to make it more comparable to the other kits again. Obviously you’ll need to download the spreadsheet to do this, the spreadsheet is included in post #2.
To illustrate what I mean: let’s assume that you the EFI&A&F is worth $1,000 to you, then deduct this $1,00 from the $6,500 cost of the kit = $5,500. Basically you’re saying then you are paying $5,500 for the kit when it would be similar to the other kits and on top of that $1,000 extra for the A/F meter and the ability to tune the EFI yourself. Note: in the example above of a $1,000 value, the BOE kit would take the lead over the VF kits re paid $ per WHP & ft-lbs.

- Until it is announced, the BOE TVS SC-kit with flash tune is NOT included in the table since both pricing and WHP and ft-lbs numbers are unknown. It appears reasonable to expect that this final flash tune will be less powerful than the EFi tune because of a higher built in safety margin.

- Based on a thoughtful comment of Lordz, I split the pricing column into two separate two columns:
1. Pricing including labor and
2. Pricing excluding labor for the pro mechanics. Please note that all the graphs are still based on the pricing including labour.
Check the spreadsheet attached in post #2 of this thread if you want to see the same type of graphs but then based on the pricing excluding labour. I didn't put these graphs in the thread (yet) to avoid confusion.

- I took out the '08 factory SC solution out of the 'costs per extra WHP / ft-lbs'-graphs since these '08 factory SC costs per extra WHP and ft-lbs are way higher than the aftermarket solutions and that made the graphs harder to read.

- In the prior version of the table I overlooked that for the more powerful kits it can be reasonably expected that a stronger clutch and higher capacity fuel pump will be required, in fact the fuel pump is already included in both the VF Stage II and BOE TVS SC kit. So the cost of an upgraded clutch is now added to the costs for the kits mentioned in the sentence before. This will impact the best-bang-for-the-buck evaluation quite a bit because, although the costs for a clutch and/or fuel pump aren’t that high, the installation costs for these two items are quite significant.


Besides the changes as mentioned above, one last remark about how I came up with the WHP/ft-lbs numbers for the VF stage II and stage III. For both stages no dynojet graphs are available yet, only graphs for the dyno VF typically uses which reads higher than a dynojet. To estimate the dynojet numbers for stage II and III, I did the following:

For VF stage I there are dynojet graphs available. Using these I did the following for both WHP and ft-lbs:
(VF stage II (or III) their own VF dyno / VF stage I their own VF dyno) * dynojet VF stage I. When dynojet graphs become available, I’ll use these instead the estimates I now need to use.

See the first post in the thread for updated conclusions.
 

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Stage 3 VF is same price as stage 2. The fuel pump price doesn't change, the price on the tune doesn't change, and all the pullies cost the same as well.

I'd be suprised if VF charges more for a stage3 vs a 2 but I guess that could happen. Just call Jermaine and ask if you need to verify.

Haven't looked at the sheet in a while, but why does the "estimated cost" for installing a fuel pump on a VF $100 more than a TVS? Also pricing is wrong for the stage2, it's listed here for $6400.

Not sure what is up with your hp numbers either. If you are using the same formula for dropping the vf numbers down then any dyno's me and Matt do are worthless to you as the dynapak we use reads alot lower than the one VF uses at their shop.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
Stage 3 VF is same price as stage 2. The fuel pump price doesn't change, the price on the tune doesn't change, and all the pullies cost the same as well.

I'd be suprised if VF charges more for a stage3 vs a 2 but I guess that could happen. Just call Jermaine and ask if you need to verify.

Haven't looked at the sheet in a while, but why does the "estimated cost" for installing a fuel pump on a VF $100 more than a TVS? Also pricing is wrong for the stage2, it's listed here for $6400.

Not sure what is up with your hp numbers either. If you are using the same formula for dropping the vf numbers down then any dyno's me and Matt do are worthless to you as the dynapak we use reads alot lower than the one VF uses at their shop.
I'll wait for stage 3 to become available for sale. After that it will be added to the graphs.

Fuel pump, although in the text I estimated it at $300 (like with TVS), I then screwed it up in the formula by using $400 instead of $300. Oops, my bad. I adjusted it: VF Stage II costs incl. labor drops to $9,150 from $9,250.
The $6,750 for stage II is $6,400 kit and $350 for clutch makes $6,750.

I didn't use your/Matt dyno #'s in the table because it's a custom tune, instead of a general tune, also adjusted for the headers/decat. Underneath the table I did include a link to the dyno #'s of Matt for people who're interested. I also expect that the dyno you used indeed read lower than the one VF uses.
 

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Yea, our dynos read 20+ less than VF's on the same tune.

Both Matt and I are running Stage3 btw. Just FYI. :)
 

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GREAT information! really detailed data, and much appreciated. Confirms my satisfication in the BWR SC choice, but mine is in an Exige. did the install myself and saved some $$. GReat data though, and im sure it will help those still "searching".

SCed is the way to go....
 

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Discussion Starter #52
Yea, our dynos read 20+ less than VF's on the same tune.

Both Matt and I are running Stage3 btw. Just FYI. :)
No matter how your dyno's read, 20 lower, 30 lower: these are impressive #'s! :crazyeyes
Porsches for breakfast, lunch and dinner on the track!
 

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Let me also say thank you for this thread. I'm in the Elise non-sc land and am eyeing the future. I look forward to talking with some sc folks at LOG29 and deciding on what option I should take (hopefully later this year).
 

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Wow, this thread is AWESOME.

Stupid question. What is the difference between EFI Ecu and reflashed ECU? So VF offers reflashed ECU and BOE offers standalone EFI? Which is better.

Any chance that there will be an intercooled TVS in the near future? That would seem like a logical progression.
 

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Standalone vs reflashed stock ECU is just that. We provide a whole new computer system, where the others provide a tune on the stock ECU. Which is better? Neither really. They're just different. One provides the end user with infinite adjustability at their finger tips and the other does not. However, the VF flash reportedly does just fine on the VF kits and there's nothing wrong with a reflashed ECU. You have to ask yourself, do you want to be able to make adjustments or do you not? Obviously, installing a new standalone has additional work involved as well... The majority of folks probably fit in the reflashed ECU camp.

That said, those that have switched to the standalone have all become addicted to it and love learning and tinkering with the tune to suit their driving style... Again, they both have an audience. The base tune we send out with the EFI standalone is VERY good and doesn't require much tinkering, but the guys who have purchased it like fiddling with things, whether it's really needed or not...

Regarding adding an IC to the TVS. Yes, that's in the cards. For now, I'm content with the reliable 280+whp that I've got and everyone that is running it seems to be as well:D It's smooth and consistent on the track and street. It just goes and goes and never fades. That said, the quest for power isn't over. I'll add the IC to get into the 330ish whp range and call it done. That should be plenty for this chassis, the tranny, and the 2zz on the track, IMO... So yes, upgrades will be available one day... probably this year. :cool:

Although, I doubt many will go for a BOE Stage II, as too many other items need to be swapped out to deal with that kind of power. For me, another clutch upgrade:rolleyes:, for others: they'll need pistons and maybe a better clutch (depending on what they have, obviously)...

Best,

Phil
 

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Hi Phil,

Do you have a clutch recommendation for those contemplating your Stage II? There are several heavy duty clutches that people have used.

Thanks,

Joe
 

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ACT HDSS should be sufficient...
 

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Second the motion

Let me also say thank you for this thread. I'm in the Elise non-sc land and am eyeing the future. I look forward to talking with some sc folks at LOG29 and deciding on what option I should take (hopefully later this year).
I belatedly second this motion!:clap:
 
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