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Hi,

Upon delivery of my Elise I will either Super Charge or Turbo Charge. I was wondering if any one has had the same idea and which option is better. I spoke with the local Toyota dealer and they have an after market Turbo kit they offer in the parts dept. The person I spoke to informed it will produce reliably 250 hp which would be 260 on an Elise. He also told me if I was purchasing a new Celica with this after market option, it would not void the warranty.

I spoke with my dealer and they are currently working on a Supercharger which he said will produce similiar results. Any suggestions on which is better?

Both around the same price $4,500.00
 

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shay2nak
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Hi happytrails,

that's great news that Toyota has a turbo kit and that an SC is being developed for the Elise. Personally, I would go with the SC. The SC has less parts and runs cooler and thus more reliable, IMHO. Heat in the Elise's engine bay is an issue so I think this is the best option. It may produce less power than the turbo, but i would take reliability and longevity over a power increase as I plan to drive my car a lot.
Ara
 

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happytrails said:
Hi,

Upon delivery of my Elise I will either Super Charge or Turbo Charge. I was wondering if any one has had the same idea and which option is better. I spoke with the local Toyota dealer and they have an after market Turbo kit they offer in the parts dept. The person I spoke to informed it will produce reliably 250 hp which would be 260 on an Elise. He also told me if I was purchasing a new Celica with this after market option, it would not void the warranty.

I spoke with my dealer and they are currently working on a Supercharger which he said will produce similiar results. Any suggestions on which is better?

Both around the same price $4,500.00
I would ask the dealer more info about the kit. I want to know how the engine gets more fuel, is it a mechanical method or is the ECU flashed? With these answers you will know if it is a kit worth looking into.

Adam p
 

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Well i was told that the car can not handle it becuase of:

A the compression ratio is tooo high 11.7:1

B The car is aluminum and clued together and the heat would seriously affect the car (over heating)

C good luck finding room for it!



I would love to SC my elise. SC i say is better becuase doesn't over heat as much as the tC and it has less lagg when taking off. plus a vortec sc puts out more hp than a tc

laters

Billy
 

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Rules of thermodynamics

If you compress a gas, it will increase in temperature. This temperature change depends on a few things, including the efficiency of the compressor.

Turbos are MORE efficient than Superchargers. Therefor they heat the air LESS than a supercharger. Yes, it sits in the exhaust and yes it will glow red from the heat. The transfer of heat through the metal to the incoming air is considered to be quite minimal and most of the heat is purely generated by air compression.

Superchargers are generally more complex mechanically than a turbocharger due to how they work with gearing etc. Turbos are just a series of fans and a venting system (wastegate.)

Turbos also have a more efficient power source, wasted energy in the exhaust gas vs actively generated energy from the pulleys.

Superchargers generally take up slightly less space (due to the plumbing required for a turbo), and produce an rpm dependant fixed amount of boost. Turbos require extensive plumbing, but can produce many times more pressure in a system, and in fact can generally produce much more pressure than required for a situation.

Torque is HIGHER in a turbo than a supercharger, through the increase in backpressure and cooler air. (plus more charge at a lower speed than a supercharger) Only issue is increased lag time, but considering we are talking about modified cars anyways, you can generally get the lag to a point where it is not noticable, and still beat anything a super might do.
 

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if you think you are going to retain your warranty you are kidding yourself. Also if you think a Celica kit will be simply bolt on in the Elise you're also going to have a big problem.

This is a much more complicated issue than you have made it out to be. I suggest you do quite a bit of research and maybe decide that the Elise is not for you.

-Steve
 

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My guess is Lotus will support the supercharger, though not initially. Possibly as an upgrade, maybe as a different car model though I doubt the second option.

As a dealer installed upgrade it could offer a limited warrantee, make lotus a ton of money and get us the power we want. Remember Lotus said they believed the engine good for near 300hp, and if you look at the K series, they really have tapped that engine for everything it was worth.

Lets hope they will do the same with the Toyota lump.

Scot
 

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I think turbocharging any car that is known for it's handling is a huge mistake. The lunge you get from a turbo kicking in is fun in a straight line, but in turns, it's a lot harder to steer a car with the gas pedal. The turbo lag would make the car difficult to drive at the handling limit when you get a sudden rush of power that throws you into the hedges. Turbos are great when the boost kicks in in a straight line, but if straight line performance rings your bell, than there are better choices than the elise.

When it comes to the powertrain/chassis/drivetrain/suspension, I have faith in the lotus engineers.
 

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Obviously you have not driven a car with a properly installed turbo, sized for the proper amount of power in your specific situation.

If it is a small turbo with a free flowing exhaust, there will effectively be 0 lag at speed on the track. Even with a fairly large turbo you will still have almost no lag when on the track except at the slowest of corners. Understand that the car will be constantly at rpm's of 6k or greater, which is able to produce enough exhaust gas force to spin the turbos well beyond what is actually required in less than the blink of an eye.

Please feel free to update your mindset past the mid 70s/80s canam style race cars with 2l engines producing 1000hp with big honking turbos. Those cars had LAG (and wicked handling).

Many cars are being "souped up" today to make 500-600 rwhp, and will have a fair amount of lag. Then again, that same car producing 300-350rwhp will have absolutely no lag in terms of what you can feel. What makes them slower on the track is inexperienced drivers. I can't tell you how many 500+ hp rx7s I have passed on the track in my little heavy boxster s. That same 500+hp rx7, even with lag, in the hands of an experienced driver would tear me up like I wasn't even moving.

Oh and you still have the accelerator pedal, you want power? Press it down and the power will be there. Coming out of a corner and only need part throttle? Check. That still works and there is no hit of power from the turbo you are not using since you have a wastegate and boost venting system.

I guess all those old formula 1 racers running at >40lbs of turbo derived boost couldnt handle worth a darn so turbocharging was the right way to go.

*cough*
 

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is it safe to venture a guess that there is no production car on earth that people wll not complain about relative to power- and insist on adding a turbo or super?
 

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Scott...bit of a differing opinion on T vs SC heat >>

I have a AMG SLK (SC V6) and a Audi TT 225 (K04 turbo) and in dyno testing both the TT even with twin ICs is much worse for heat sync issues... measured air intake pre Turbo and post turbo vs same pre and post SC show much higher heat gains for the turbo system. Now a few variables that can effect this testing... the AMG SC runs at 14 psi boost and the TT with a MTM setup is running 21 psi... the AMG has one large IC (air to water type) while the TT has 2 smaller ICs (air only)...I would say though that the two smaller ICs together are about 75% as large as the 1 IC on the AMG.
Anyway...I would NOT turbo the Toyota engine set up in the Elise... way to much heat generation and where to place the IC which is a must for a turbo engine. Also with the higher compression Toyota engine you will have to keep boost way down...like in the 5-6 psi range. SC makes more since to me and has been done to engines of similar characteristics to the Toyota one... the Ford Focus SVT engine being an example. Jackson Racing spent long time developing a SC set up for the SVT due to high compression ratios of the engine (little over 11 to 1)...their SC is a low boost type and required remapping the ECU.
 

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I believe fitment and heat issues will dictate which way Lotus and the aftermarket goes. There are both SC and turbo kits now available for the 2ZZ-GE as developed for the Celica GTS. All the kits run on stock internals and compression. If the boost is held to 8psi neither is an issue. 270hp to the wheels is the best the kits are doing. Less for the SC. Considering the HP we are aiming to achieve, either derivation will work. I'm sure Lotus will look at which requires little to no modification to the engine bay and generates less heat. I'm not talking about charge heat but heat in the engine bay. You don't want to be replacing an alternator every year or melting all that nice aluminum.

If I had to guess it will be the TRD SC (or some variation) with an Air/water IC. I'd expect around 250WHP which is just fine for me.

At the track I drive an A4 (K04) making 225HP that weighs 3400LBS and regularly surprise much higher powered (and lighter) cars. A 1900LBS Elise with 250HP will be truely amazing.
 

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LotusLust said:
is it safe to venture a guess that there is no production car on earth that people wll not complain about relative to power- and insist on adding a turbo or super?
Reminds me of a famous racer who said the only car that has too much power is the one that's still burning rubber at the end of the straight.

Naturally there's a trade-off between power and driveability, but as technology advances, the compromises become milder. Take the Toyota Supra, for example. The stock engine (2JZGTE) has demonstrated it will handle 700-800 rwhp reliably. There are many examples of daily drivers at this power level. The downside to these single turbo cars has been the lag associated with the size of the turbo needed to produce the power. The most recent turbo technology supposedly sees an aftermarket single turbo that spools up as quickly as the stock twins, yet puts out about 5-600 rwhp versus the 400 the stock twins will produce.

I've been told by Toyota people that their 3 liter inline 6 is probably the best engine ever made by Toyota. Hopefully the Elise engine will serve us well.

Jeff
 

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I don't know this all sounds a lot like what I call the equipment syndrome in golf. People will spend huge sums of money of their equipment and still play lousy golf, because they don't spend a dime on lessons. For the vast majority of poeple on this board the money would be better spent of autocross classes or track driving schools. And, once they have exceeded the capabilities of the stock Elise then think about suspension and engine mods. It just seems to me that very, very few will be able to fully use the cas as it is built, more horse power or suspension modifications will not improve autocross or track times, and if it is 0 - 60 times you are going for there are cheaper and more effective ways to get there. Just my two cents.
 

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You are comparing a supercharged v6 to a 4cyl pushing a kk04 to 21lbs? Oh and the intercooler's total area is smaller on the TT, oh and its a water/air intercooler on the AMG. What the hell are you smoking?

There are apples to oranges then there are these kinds of comparisons. This is NOT a comparison. Replace the turbo on the TT with a supercharger with a similar efficiency rating producing the SAME boost and you will see the difference.

Turbos are MORE EFFICIENT therefor create LESS HEAT during the compression of air going into an engine. Sorry, that is an absolute fact (on normal superchargers used for street applications, there are others which are close to turbos in efficiency, but useless on the street for the most part , but even then they are not more efficient, just about the same). Issue here is you are using vastly more boost (and out of the efficiency range for the kk04s I might add, though not by much and well within specs for it to work) being produced by a small engine going through two seperate intercoolers (one is more efficient in most cases due to the higher flow of incoming air and you generally get more fins per cubic inch of space taken.)

Its this kind of "information" on the internet that really ticks me off. People have no idea what the heck they are taking about, so rather than doing ANY research they just go "my friend told me" or "I did check it, though I dont have any baseline information and the science behind it says something entirely different."
 

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Scott...your reply is inappropriate>>>

I simply disagreed with you and have a strong basis for it. I have been testing/working on/racing/and more on cars for over 30 years. I test many products and have routinely organized events to bring tuners and products together for REAL testing..dyno whatever.
It is unfortunate that have have a snap judgement personality and can't post with it bit more decorum. Maybe listening and digesting a bit would do you well.
Sorry, but posts like yours makes being on a forum difficult...
 

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James A said:
I don't know this all sounds a lot like what I call the equipment syndrome in golf. People will spend huge sums of money of their equipment and still play lousy golf, because they don't spend a dime on lessons. For the vast majority of poeple on this board the money would be better spent of autocross classes or track driving schools. And, once they have exceeded the capabilities of the stock Elise then think about suspension and engine mods. It just seems to me that very, very few will be able to fully use the cas as it is built, more horse power or suspension modifications will not improve autocross or track times, and if it is 0 - 60 times you are going for there are cheaper and more effective ways to get there. Just my two cents.

see- there IS sense on this board
 

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Different car, same conversation. I have seen SC vs TC conversations on dozens of different forums and they never go anywhere.

Save yourselves some frustration and just agree to disagree and call it a day.
 

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Tripledigits said:
Reminds me of a famous racer who said the only car that has too much power is the one that's still burning rubber at the end of the straight.
I agree with that! As an example, a lot of people believe that the Miata has a perfect balance of handling and power. But I definitely prefer them with FI. Cool how an extra 50hp wakes the car up (or extra 250hp for you OFM :eek:). I expect to be wildly delighted with the stock Elise. But I'd be even happier with an extra 50-60 (or 1500) horsepower.

What do people think about warranty impacting Lotus's choice (assuming Lotus upgrades the motor, as they did with the Rover)? My guess is that Toyota warrants the lump. In that case they might be more likely to use TRD pieces.

Then again, Lotus didn't totally redesign the Rover heads and replace a lot of internals for the Sport 190s? Maybe I'm just speculating wildly with no fact basis..... :cool:
 
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