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hermanslotus said:
If you were going to track your Elise than why didn't you purchase the hardtop. If you show up to the track with the hardtop on they cannot argue that it's a convertible.

BTW I have been doing BMW CCA schools up at Lime Rock and Watkins Glen since 1993. I drove my vette up at the Glen from '93 to '95 and the Genesse Valley Chap. of BMW CCA never once gave me a hard time. The vette is a targa just like the Elise and as long as you show up to the track with the hard top on they cannot give you a problem.
As people have stated, some of this is BMWCCA chapter specific, but some of this is also *track* specific. They can and *will* turn you away for a convertible with a hard top at many places.

A convertible with a hard top is no better than a convertible with no top in a crash. It provides little protection and can simply be ripped off quite easily. The reason a full top is required over a convertible with hard top is cars with full tops *use* that top as part of the structure of the car and thus it is much safer than a top simply bolted on to keep heat in the winter.

That said, I do agree that the Elise and other targa-style tops should be allowed as they usually do incorporate rollover protection in the rear. I do think they should make you remove the top and pass the broomstick test, but if you put it back or not should be your option.


--Donnie
 

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frayed said:
What Mitch said. Show up with a hard top on, and don't say a word. Don't ask, don't tell so to speak.
Unfortunately he asked first instead of just showing up and probably ruined it for the rest of us. The Vette targa top isn't even made from body material, it's GLASS! I see tons of them at BMW schools with no questions asked.
 

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ringmeister said:
Unfortunately he asked first instead of just showing up and probably ruined it for the rest of us. The Vette targa top isn't even made from body material, it's GLASS! I see tons of them at BMW schools with no questions asked.
I hope to God this guy did not ruin it for the rest of us. For if he did I will send the great Borat from the Ali G show to Crush him. LOL, just kidding.

Hey Ring can you ask CCA about the Elise since you have been doing and instructing the schools for over 15 years. Please find out for us. I mean if they really aren't going to allow the Elise with the hardtop into the drivers school, than there is no point for me getting this car.

Best Wishes,
Mitch
 

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he will come at you with claw. throw him down the well.
 

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hermanslotus said:
I hope to God this guy did not ruin it for the rest of us. For if he did I will send the great Borat from the Ali G show to Crush him. LOL, just kidding.

Hey Ring can you ask CCA about the Elise since you have been doing and instructing the schools for over 15 years. Please find out for us. I mean if they really aren't going to allow the Elise with the hardtop into the drivers school, than there is no point for me getting this car.

Best Wishes,
Mitch
I'm on it. I'll get back to you.
 

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hermanslotus said:
I hope to God this guy did not ruin it for the rest of us. For if he did I will send the great Borat from the Ali G show to Crush him. LOL, just kidding.

Hey Ring can you ask CCA about the Elise since you have been doing and instructing the schools for over 15 years. Please find out for us. I mean if they really aren't going to allow the Elise with the hardtop into the drivers school, than there is no point for me getting this car.

Best Wishes,
Mitch
Really?! You'd pass on the Elise just because BMWCCA won't let you do their track events? I'm totally amazed given your long-standing enthusiasm for the car. Why not run with the PCA? They have no problem letting their Boxsters run. I guess you could just continue to wait for an Exige.

And...I may have mentioned this story before in another post, but it's worth repeating.....

I did a BMWCCA school in May at Summit Point. A well known BMW guy (originally from New Jersey and used to own & work on E30 M3s) showed up with his '04 Honda S2000 - equipped with hardtop. He ran 2 sessions and was really smoking most everything out there (E46 M3, EVO, STi, R32, E30 M3, etc.) The BMW chief instructor told him, "I'll let you finish the day, but you won't be able to bring that car back to any other CCA schools because it doesn't have a fixed roof." He was a little pissed since he had just bought the hardtop expressly for the schools. He and I agreed that the Chief Instructor's decision was based partly on the ass-whooping he put on the BMWs and most everything else.

Anyway -- I hope the CCA allows the Elise to run with a hardtop. But if they allow the Elise -- they damn well better allow an S2000 with hardtop!!

[Getting ready for my '07 Boxster S Coupe]
 

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Hans,
Do you think there is some distinction between an S2k and the Elise (due to the picture Stan posted of the more substantial roll bar) or do you think it should be regarded as a nominal difference and virtually the same saftey wise? If there is a significant differentiation, I think this enough for the Elise to be able to run with a hardtop. Wishfull thinking perhaps.
 

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Years ago the atlanta chapter of bmw CCA wouldnt let me run my caterham even tho it had an FIA approved roll bar. This was about the time z3s showed up on the scene, the only way they would allow me to run the seven was with a full SCCA crash cage (ie bars sticking out everywhere). Probably spent an hour on the phone with the organizer to no avail..

Finally gave up and joined the Braselton Driving Club.

Chris
 

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Hans Stuck said:
Really?! You'd pass on the Elise just because BMWCCA won't let you do their track events? I'm totally amazed given your long-standing enthusiasm for the car. Why not run with the PCA? They have no problem letting their Boxsters run. I guess you could just continue to wait for an Exige.

And...I may have mentioned this story before in another post, but it's worth repeating.....

I did a BMWCCA school in May at Summit Point. A well known BMW guy (originally from New Jersey and used to own & work on E30 M3s) showed up with his '04 Honda S2000 - equipped with hardtop. He ran 2 sessions and was really smoking most everything out there (E46 M3, EVO, STi, R32, E30 M3, etc.) The BMW chief instructor told him, "I'll let you finish the day, but you won't be able to bring that car back to any other CCA schools because it doesn't have a fixed roof." He was a little pissed since he had just bought the hardtop expressly for the schools. He and I agreed that the Chief Instructor's decision was based partly on the ass-whooping he put on the BMWs and most everything else.

Anyway -- I hope the CCA allows the Elise to run with a hardtop. But if they allow the Elise -- they damn well better allow an S2000 with hardtop!!

[Getting ready for my '07 Boxster S Coupe]
The S2000 is a convertible with a hard top attached to it exactly like a Miata and they haven't been allowed either in many BMW CCA chapter schools. The Elise is a Targa like the 911 targa and like the C4, C5 and C6 Vette which most if not all BMW CCA chapters allow in their schools.
 

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Vantage said:
Hans,
Do you think there is some distinction between an S2k and the Elise (due to the picture Stan posted of the more substantial roll bar) or do you think it should be regarded as a nominal difference and virtually the same saftey wise? If there is a significant differentiation, I think this enough for the Elise to be able to run with a hardtop. Wishfull thinking perhaps.
I don't know. I think a car with no roof is a car with no roof. An aluminum hard top attached doesn't do much in either case...except keep you from scraping your helmet on the pavement.

I know that people here have be warned about not using the windshield of the Elise as support to help them get in and out of the car. It'll crack eventually if you use it as leverage.

Conversely, I've heard (and seen photos) of people rolling their S2000s ... when the car came to rest upside down. The windshield was so strong that it did not crack. It supported the weight of the car.

I believe any decision to include an Elise and ban an S2000 is just an decision made to appease the Lotus guys. I don't think it would be based on anything substantial. But who knows. There's politics in everything.
 

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ringmeister said:
The S2000 is a convertible with a hard top attached to it exactly like a Miata and they haven't been allowed either in many BMW CCA chapter schools. The Elise is a Targa like the 911 targa and like the C4, C5 and C6 Vette which most if not all BMW CCA chapters allow in their schools.
Hey Ring,

So what did you find out with the BMW CCA in regards to the Elise? Are they going to let it in or not???

Inquiring minds want to know.

Mitch
 

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Hans Stuck said:
Really?! You'd pass on the Elise just because BMWCCA won't let you do their track events? I'm totally amazed given your long-standing enthusiasm for the car. Why not run with the PCA? They have no problem letting their Boxsters run. I guess you could just continue to wait for an Exige.

And...I may have mentioned this story before in another post, but it's worth repeating.....

I did a BMWCCA school in May at Summit Point. A well known BMW guy (originally from New Jersey and used to own & work on E30 M3s) showed up with his '04 Honda S2000 - equipped with hardtop. He ran 2 sessions and was really smoking most everything out there (E46 M3, EVO, STi, R32, E30 M3, etc.) The BMW chief instructor told him, "I'll let you finish the day, but you won't be able to bring that car back to any other CCA schools because it doesn't have a fixed roof." He was a little pissed since he had just bought the hardtop expressly for the schools. He and I agreed that the Chief Instructor's decision was based partly on the ass-whooping he put on the BMWs and most everything else.

Anyway -- I hope the CCA allows the Elise to run with a hardtop. But if they allow the Elise -- they damn well better allow an S2000 with hardtop!!

[Getting ready for my '07 Boxster S Coupe]

BS, I have been doing BMW CAA schools since 1992 and I have never once seen a convertible with or without at top in any east coast CCA school. IT IS NOT ALLOWED period.

Mitch
 

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hermanslotus said:
BS, I have been doing BMW CAA schools since 1992 and I have never once seen a convertible with or without at top in any east coast CCA school. IT IS NOT ALLOWED period.
Hey Mitch. I've seen this. I forgot which chapter I was running with, but there was a gentleman with a yellow S2000 with a rollbar bolted in and then the hardtop on top of that.

Also, Gary posted a reply from the GVC meeting saying that it would be allowed so long as it had a hardtop. :clap:
 

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hermanslotus said:
BS, I have been doing BMW CAA schools since 1992 and I have never once seen a convertible with or without at top in any east coast CCA school. IT IS NOT ALLOWED period.

Mitch
BS to the story or to our belief that being told not come back was motivated by the ass-whooping?

As to the story: Why the hell would I make it up, Mitch?

It was the weekend of May 22-23, National Capital Chapter of BMWCCA. Summit Point Jefferson Circuit. The S2000 was an '04 and it was red. I have the guy's name if you need it. The Chief instructor was a woman named Miriam. She has an older 911SC.
You need more proof & details? It was very very hot that weekend. Some idiot spun his E46 M3 off the skidpad into the mud ditch on the inside part of the pad.
What else do you require? The S2000 owner has the initials C.J.

As to our belief: Well, I just think that the CCA is a little arbitrary about this stuff. They let cars they like run. I doubt a 246 Dino is any safer, but they'd let that run. Sure -- it's a "Targa" style car....but they like it better too.

I don't worry about it. FATT gives you more track time at Summit Point and they allow open cars. So does the PCA. There are many options.

** But you didn't answer the question --- So ... if the BMWCCA says "NO" to the Elise, are you going to back out on buying it, Mitch? Or does the M3 need to sell first? Maybe I should call "BS" on you / that.
 
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