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Discussion Starter #1
Want to upgrade my toe-links, trying to decide between the InoKinetic at $250 or the BOE set up at $210. I would appreciate any users insights / recommendations.

Thanks guys!
 

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This has been discussed many a time, there is no definitive answer. Any of the available upgrades will work just fine, pick the one you think is best for your purpose. If you track your car, check the suspension fasteners every time before the event, if only street driven check them annually. That said, I have the DRS from InoKinetic.

:grin2:
 

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Sorry typo, yes it's the DS Brace. :smile2:

PS: When I installed mine I used a dial indicator on the rotor for reference. I worked out really close to the original spec, still had an alignment done.
 

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Want to upgrade my toe-links, trying to decide between the InoKinetic at $250 or the BOE set up at $210. I would appreciate any users insights / recommendations.

Thanks guys!
First of all, there is no need to upgrade the toe links - there is nothing wrong with them. The problem is the inner toe link bolt tend to fail. Lotus designed a brace that connect the two bolts and put them both into double shear instead of single shear and bending - effectively doubling the strength of the bolt. The aftermarket sale of toe links with a fix for the inner bolts is a waste of money if the wishbones aren't upgraded at the same time. If you have no intentions of upgrading your wishbones, there is no need to upgrade the toe links. Those also add weight.
 

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I don't understand the mentality of saying don't upgrade the links because the bolt is the problem, then suggesting the alternative of adding a brace, followed by a point about adding weight. I also don't understand why wishbones would seem mandatory along with toe link replacement. I'm quite sure that adding a brace will add weight, and it doesn't really address the first point, that the bolt hardware itself is the real problem. Suppose I consider upgrading toe links with stronger bolts to solve the weak bolt as a "band aid", well then, adding a brace to the existing bolts is surely a "band aid" at best? I also think it's worth pointing out that Lotus did not originally design their brace along with the car; if I'm not mistaken, it was added later, presumably to address the failing part.

Meanwhile, I believe Inokinetic and BOE have proven that their toe links both drop weight compared to stock. So if adding weight is a real concern, it would seem adding a brace is not the best solution. Replacing the hardware with something both stronger and lighter would seem to resolve the primary problem and weight concern.

The BOE "1/2 link" will remove the concern about the bolts being too weak and I think it may be the strongest hardware solution. It's also one of the least expensive options. It does require drilling, which can be a turn off.

InoKinetic's TLUkit leads me to believe it is only intended to be used with a brace. To implement that in the way it is intended, wouldn't the car need a brace already, or you need to add one? So it's not going to be as light, or as inexpensive, but has the advantage of being a reversible install.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
The aftermarket sale of toe links with a fix for the inner bolts is a waste of money if the wishbones aren't upgraded at the same time. If you have no intentions of upgrading your wishbones, there is no need to upgrade the toe links. Those also add weight.
Hmmm...noted. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I don't understand the mentality of saying don't upgrade the links because the bolt is the problem, then suggesting the alternative of adding a brace, followed by a point about adding weight. I also don't understand why wishbones would seem mandatory along with toe link replacement.
In the interest of both peace of mind and safety, I'm going with the InoKinetic DS brace set up. It's a proven system and the fact that it requires no permanent modifications is appealing to me.
 

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I have to add this important point. Whether you have the single sheer OEM solutoin, the double sheer OEM solution, Inokinetic, whatever. You still should be checking the torques on these bolts on a regular basis.

If you've got a street driven car I think there's little value to upgrading so long as you regularly check the torque on the bolts. For a tracked car, any double sheer option, and regular checks of the bolt torque. The KEY is regular checks of the bolt torque. For the street, give it a check when you change the oil.

As a practical matter, I think the weights of the various solutions are overblown.
 
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I don't understand the mentality of saying don't upgrade the links because the bolt is the problem, then suggesting the alternative of adding a brace, followed by a point about adding weight. I also don't understand why wishbones would seem mandatory along with toe link replacement. I'm quite sure that adding a brace will add weight, and it doesn't really address the first point, that the bolt hardware itself is the real problem. Suppose I consider upgrading toe links with stronger bolts to solve the weak bolt as a "band aid", well then, adding a brace to the existing bolts is surely a "band aid" at best? I also think it's worth pointing out that Lotus did not originally design their brace along with the car; if I'm not mistaken, it was added later, presumably to address the failing part.

Meanwhile, I believe Inokinetic and BOE have proven that their toe links both drop weight compared to stock. So if adding weight is a real concern, it would seem adding a brace is not the best solution. Replacing the hardware with something both stronger and lighter would seem to resolve the primary problem and weight concern.

The BOE "1/2 link" will remove the concern about the bolts being too weak and I think it may be the strongest hardware solution. It's also one of the least expensive options. It does require drilling, which can be a turn off.

InoKinetic's TLUkit leads me to believe it is only intended to be used with a brace. To implement that in the way it is intended, wouldn't the car need a brace already, or you need to add one? So it's not going to be as light, or as inexpensive, but has the advantage of being a reversible install.
The added weight of the toe link is unsprung weight...well, half of it anyway. and the added brace is all sprung weight. There is a big difference in car control/handling between the two.

Oh...and by the way. The OEM is well proven also. There were no more bolt failures after the OEM brace was installed.

And, the OEM is still OEM...well...I think...any way. :scratchhead:

And your point of mandatory wishbone upgrades to upgrade the toe links is also a good point. Pilbeam offers a light weight wishbone set for the car. In every respect a downgrade of the wishbones and the toe links...and guess what...they don't fail even in rally cars! So, upgrading your wishbones is just adding unsprung weight to the car. The worst thing that you can do to the handling of the car....well just about. Unsprung weight is your worst enemy.
 

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I have to add this important point. Whether you have the single sheer OEM solutoin, the double sheer OEM solution, Inokinetic, whatever. You still should be checking the torques on these bolts on a regular basis.

If you've got a street driven car I think there's little value to upgrading so long as you regularly check the torque on the bolts. For a tracked car, any double sheer option, and regular checks of the bolt torque. The KEY is regular checks of the bolt torque. For the street, give it a check when you change the oil.

As a practical matter, I think the weights of the various solutions are overblown.
Forgive me, I'm pretty new to this type of thing. I don't track my car, so have been putting this mod off.

The heart of the matter is that a bolt isn't torqued enough from the factory, or through regular use becomes loose? Which exact bolt is this, and do you know the torque spec? Did Lotus upgrade it at all, or just tell everyone to check it regularly?
 

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The added weight of the toe link is unsprung weight...well, half of it anyway. and the added brace is all sprung weight. There is a big difference in car control/handling between the two.
Yeah not trying to be difficult with you, just not sure we're on the same page. Agreed 100% on the effects of sprung vs unsprung weight, but ... I'm pretty sure we've seen the parts weighed on scales, the Lotus toe links weigh MORE than the BOE full links. This is not including the brace, just the toe links. If part of your concern is the weight, well, the BOE 1/2 link solution decreases unsprung weight, and since it doesn't require a brace, it also does not add to the sprung weight. Less weight overall and less unsprung weight as well would seem an appealing solution for the weight watchers.

I still don't understand the tie in to upgrading wishbones. Not arguing against it, rather, I'd like to know more about the idea. I didn't know any different so I have upgraded my toe links and I still run the factory wishbones with no explosions so far! ;)

Forgive me, I'm pretty new to this type of thing. I don't track my car, so have been putting this mod off.

The heart of the matter is that a bolt isn't torqued enough from the factory, or through regular use becomes loose? Which exact bolt is this, and do you know the torque spec? Did Lotus upgrade it at all, or just tell everyone to check it regularly?
I think the idea is that the bolt gets loose, that allows it to "wobble" and start to take on forces from angles that the engineers never intended. Colin Chapman has been quoted as saying something like, "If a part doesn't break, it's too heavy." Perhaps the engineers took that too literally! Here's some info from the old sector111 site that explains where the bolt is and some of their thoughts on the issue:
Sector111's Tasty Innovations Blog: Lotus Rear Inner Toe Links


Torque values, I had a hard time finding the official word from Lotus, but have seen many people say it was increased from the original 50 Nm up to 60 Nm. This shows the original 50 Nm:
http://gglotus.org/ggtech/elise-tsb/body-tsb1.htm

Post from Jack (I consider him quite knowledgeable) where he was quoting the updated TSB:
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f101/anyone-have-new-toe-link-torque-spec-page-service-manual-47339/index2.html#post826530
 

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Supposedly once the bolt nut comes loose, it puts strain on the actual toe link bolt, and the bolt will eventually snap..which is the toe link failure. If you go under your car to torque this nut, and it's already loose... you need to replace the toe link as it's now been compromised.

Regarding these threads that always seem to pop up: These back and forth debates are always based on hearsay, and I never see any actual tested scientific data to back people's opinions, just members repeating something they've read and taking it as the truth. Just because someone says something online, and confirmation bias follows, doesn't make it true.

At the end of the day, I think we can all agree that the toe links need to be replaced, but I have even read accounts on this forum of the aftermarket options failing. Whether that was an improper install, etc, I do not know.

Also note that the "toe link brace" is different from the actual toe link replacement.
 

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Yeah not trying to be difficult with you, just not sure we're on the same page. Agreed 100% on the effects of sprung vs unsprung weight, but ... I'm pretty sure we've seen the parts weighed on scales, the Lotus toe links weigh MORE than the BOE full links. This is not including the brace, just the toe links. If part of your concern is the weight, well, the BOE 1/2 link solution decreases unsprung weight, and since it doesn't require a brace, it also does not add to the sprung weight. Less weight overall and less unsprung weight as well would seem an appealing solution for the weight watchers.

I still don't understand the tie in to upgrading wishbones. Not arguing against it, rather, I'd like to know more about the idea. I didn't know any different so I have upgraded my toe links and I still run the factory wishbones with no explosions so far! ;)



I think the idea is that the bolt gets loose, that allows it to "wobble" and start to take on forces from angles that the engineers never intended. Colin Chapman has been quoted as saying something like, "If a part doesn't break, it's too heavy." Perhaps the engineers took that too literally! Here's some info from the old sector111 site that explains where the bolt is and some of their thoughts on the issue:
Sector111's Tasty Innovations Blog: Lotus Rear Inner Toe Links


Torque values, I had a hard time finding the official word from Lotus, but have seen many people say it was increased from the original 50 Nm up to 60 Nm. This shows the original 50 Nm:
http://gglotus.org/ggtech/elise-tsb/body-tsb1.htm

Post from Jack (I consider him quite knowledgeable) where he was quoting the updated TSB:
http://www.lotustalk.com/forums/f101/anyone-have-new-toe-link-torque-spec-page-service-manual-47339/index2.html#post826530
Dude, thank you!

My car never sees a track, but I'd like to do whatever I can to ensure that I don't have an issue with this, and if that means upgrading, then so be it.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I'd like to do whatever I can to ensure that I don't have an issue with this, and if that means upgrading, then so be it.
My thoughts precisely. Reading that recent thread from the owner who had his toe-links fail on the highway, after he had just bought the car from wirewheel, was enough for me to want the insurance...
 

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We know that this fastener gets loose with use, and I don't need a scientific study to know that less than specified torque values lead to premature failures in fasteners. There ARE plenty of studies out there on this concept, just not specific to the lotus application. I don't need a bulletin from Lotus to know its a good idea to keep an eye on this particular thing based on the observable evidence.

If you want to go double-sheer, go ahead, but please don't forget to check the bolts. Double sheer does not keep the bolts from loosening.
 

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What prompted me to install the BOE solution is that I believe it is more fault-tolerant. By fault, I mean if the torque falls to (some percentage) less than the specified value, the fastener is less likely to fail than the OEM-sized fastener ... whether the latter is in double-shear or not.

There are some components that I am willing to pay a weight penalty to get a more robust system. Since loss of rear wheel location is such a catastrophic event, I want a fault-tolerant, robust system. The argument that you only need to upgrade your toe links if you track your car is unconvincing. I most certainly drive on public roads in a way that loads the suspension with forces equal to those experienced on the track.

Finally, if you are improving your car’s safety (and this one keeps you alive and out of the ditch), I just don’t get all the hand-wringing about being able to reverse that mod. If I undid all the improvements I’ve made to my car - safety-related and otherwise - it would be a pretty miserable car to operate.

Glen
 

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The argument that you only need to upgrade your toe links if you track your car is unconvincing.
There has to be some guidance with advice. Clearly the single sheer is an acceptable solution given a set of conditions, so if tracking isn't the line... what is? Honestly I think a lot of "fixes" get sold using fear.
 

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Finally, if you are improving your car’s safety (and this one keeps you alive and out of the ditch), I just don’t get all the hand-wringing about being able to reverse that mod. If I undid all the improvements I’ve made to my car - safety-related and otherwise - it would be a pretty miserable car to operate.

Glen
I thought I read some class rules that penalized for changing the OE size bolt here. That would be the only reason I would might hesitate on a something I could not reverse safety wise. I still went with the BOE solution.

Regarding the OE “fix”... While I have not heard of a failed link with the brace, I have heard of them still getting lose. Also not a fan of the fix being a simple rod connecting the two bolts and not bracing against anything else.
 
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