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Discussion Starter #1
LC should have went with Toyota's 2.0 engine. TRD has all the racing modifications available to increase the output to astronomical numbers. I'm sure most of them could have been adapted to fit the Elise engine bay. What's more, the 2.0 engine is apparently indestructable. Is it possible Toyota wouldn't go for it? Not that the Elise will be underpowered, but modding is just a way of life for me. Maybe the performance would have surpassed the Espirit. Just a little disappointed.
 

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No. Lighter and smaller is better. Lighter weight gets you more performance than more power, and it does it more easily since there's less weight to brake, accelerate up to speed, resist turns, etc.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
How much heavier do you think the 2.0 is than the 1.8? It may just be a matter of a new cam shaft. I bet they use the same block and weigh within a few pounds of each other.
 

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er, um..have I missed the official announcement ? Eyelise is writing the post above as if Lotus has announced the 1.8 l engine as the choice. Although this is what everyone's been anticipating, is it official yet ?
 

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I'm not familiar with the Toyota 2.0, but the 1.8 non-VVTLi (engine code 1ZZ-GE) used in the Celica and MR2 is a completely different engine from the 1.8 VVTLi (engine code 2ZZ-GE) also used in the Celica and Elise S3. It has a different block, different heads. different crank, different pistons, etc. So I doubt that the 2.0 is simply a modified version of the 2ZZ-GE. What cars are the 2.0 used in? What is the power? It's an absolute certainty that it's heavier, and the 1ZZ-GE and 2ZZ-GE are Toyota's first all-Aluminum engines. If you're talking about the old generation Celica's 2.0, that's an Iron block!

Again lighter is better. It means the car and all its components can be lighter also. Repeat after me: "lighter is better". Most Americans always want more power. Most racers always want less weight.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I hear you about the weight concerns. Actually, I build and ride my own bicycles. Your talking to someone who has spent a dollar/gram to shave weight off a custom Titanium bike. I've been called a weight weanie more than once in the past. I also appreciate the ability to modify my vehicles. I enjoy that aspect almost as much as driving or going to the track. I do it all myself. I'm going to find out the facts about the 2.0 and report back. I have a neighbor that works for Toyota corporate. He is the one that initially suggested the 2.0 would be the best choice of all the current Toyota engines.
 

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if your talking about the 3sge (the only current 2.0l toyota motor i can think of) which is in the lexus is 300 i believe i don't know the exact wieght but i do know it ways a decent about more. How much i would say atleast 50+ lbs and i don't have any dynos (sure can be found) but the 20 or so rated hp difference is deffinatly not worth 50 lbs in a 1800lbs car atleast in my book.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
It's not the 50 HP but the potential for sooo much more. TRD has all the parts needed to run that engine up well over 300HP. I would definitely sacrifice 50lbs for an extra 150-200HP. Wouldn't you?
 

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Maybe. How much would the extra parts weigh?

One thing, we can always change the engine. :)
 

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Eyelise said:
It's not the 50 HP but the potential for sooo much more. TRD has all the parts needed to run that engine up well over 300HP. I would definitely sacrifice 50lbs for an extra 150-200HP. Wouldn't you?
No. Weight is the most important and the Elise does not need 400 horsepower. It needs light weight a lot more than it needs a 50 lb lump of iron in the back. Drive one before saying it needs more power.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
It's not just about weight. It's the weight/HP ratio. You need to balance the two. Granted, you don't want to throw the weight bias to the rear anymore than you have to but a turbo upgrade is not all that heavy. Most automotive engineers consider it a "free lunch".

The Elise's weight/HP ratio will be substantially less than a Z06 even though it may weigh in at 1900lbs. With a better weight/HP ratio (notice I didn't just say more HP), the Elise should more easily keep pace with the Z06. My brother-in-law is in the market for a used Z06. He has always sided with American muscle. We are equally matched in driving skills. I smell a rivalry in the making. You can see my motivation. Okay, feel free to flame me.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
BTW, I have a chance to drive a Euro S2. I hope it works out.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
OOps I meant to say the weight/hp ratio for the Elise will be substantially more than the Z06, Sorry.
 

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The ratio is important but so is the specific weight. The Elise should weigh around 1400 lbs less than the Corvette which is always going to make it more agile and effortless in motion. The mid-engined layout also means it's more agile, particularly in transitions. You may find that you don't need more power to be competitive. The cars will probably be close enough in performance that the biggest determiner of lap times will be the drivers and not the cars.

As far as turbos, they do add weight, especially all the plumbing and intercoolers, etc. Perhaps more importantly they add lag and some non-linearity to the throttle response. I'd much rather have a normally aspirated car with a relatively linear and predictable throttle response than suffer the uncertainty of when boost comes on where, particuarly during those delicate transitions which a light, mid-engined car is capable of.
 

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To add to what Jeffc said... if the car's were equal hp/weight, the lower weight car wins. There may be too much focus on the hp/weight thing...which matters more in straight line acceleration.

Lower weight means you can take corners faster (less mass pulling sideways. Lower weight means you can brake deeper (less mass to slow down).

And the advantages of a midengined design for racing has already been gone over on the forum. So it won't take much in terms of hp to keep up with the higher powered cars.

For an example at this morning's race. I was in a Toyota MR2 Spyder. In my run group were a couple of race prepped Vipers (running in ASP) and Z-06 Corvettes and also some other odd racing cars. All of Super Stock and ASP. All in all, maybe 50 cars. I beat them all with my 140hp Spyder. Set Top Time of Day until a race prepped new Evo came out and beat me. :)

Now, I am going off to race tonight at Irwindale in my 42hp shifter kart. It weighs 200 pounds, but more importantly, the braking zone is incredibly small and it sticks like a limpet while turning.

What is my point??? :) Don't worry too much about horsepower. It's only one part of the car and not the most important part. Weight is more important. Driver skill is also. Unless you are into dragracing...in which case this is not the right car.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I agree the lower weight gives the Elise the edge on the track. That's why I'm putting down a deposit in a week or so. Unfortunately I'll be sitting beside my brother-in-law at stop lights time and time again and would like to hold my own when the light turns green. My primary intension for the car is the track but It will see considerable street use where the wt/hp thing comes more into to play. BTW, my daily driver is an 1.8T A4 tuned to 235hp/250ft-lbs with a small turbo. It develops max torque at 2800rpms. The car weighs 3300lbs but feels sporty. I've taken it on the track at LimeRock Park and NHIS. I was recently riding with Bill Prout, founder of the SCDA. He was driving my car at NHIS and was simply amazed at the smooth response of the turbo. It really depends how you tune it. This engine is commonly tuned to close to 300hp with much larger turbos. Unfortunately small engine+big turbo=lag. I like the daily driveability of my set-up much better.
 

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It all depends on the driver of the car. I've run better lap times than Z06's and Vipers in my Exige, but I've also been demolished when a good driver gets behind the wheel of those cars.

It is easier to drive a high hp car fast, I will say that. It takes a good driver to drive an Elise/Exige fast. I'm getting better and I know I have a ways to go.
 

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just to add alittle bit more to the weight argument i have pull both a 2zz and 3sgte (92 mr2) don't know how much of a diff the NA motor is. But the sleave alone on the 2zz prolly weighed in at like 40 lbs while i fought to get the 3s sleaves into the trunk to take it to the machine shop this past wk prolly about 100 lbs. BTW i move furniture so i pick up heavey crap all day ;)

Also having driven my celica and dispite some poeples complants on the torque curve its still a very peppy car and thats at 2500lbs. Also you could check the mr2-spyder boards there are a couple of poeple that have put one in theres. I'd guess that would be the best comparision we could get.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Mikester, these apples and elephants are destined to meet on the track frequently.
 
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