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My point was simple, and you made it yourself by saying that the 'vette weighs 3300 pounds. These are two very different beasts.

I was at Laguna Seca a couple of weekends ago, and there were all different types of cars in the paddock. There were original Trans Am cars (Camaros, Javelins, Mustangs etc.), and there were 356's, Elva's, Lotus 23's, Elevens etc. All great, very very cool cars. Is there any real point in trying to compare one type (lightweight, sports racer) to the other (massive, heavy but brutally powerful muscle car) ? If there is, I don't really see it. If these cars were tools (and they are, really) then the Lotus would be a scalpel, the 'vette would be a SawsAll. And I'm not dissing the Z06, I've never driven one, but I've read the highly, highly favorable reviews, I'm sure it's a very capable machine.

BTW, the most exciting race that I saw on that Saturday was the Trans Am race, those big ole' cars were really impressive, sometimes three wide through the turns !

There's a vehicle out there for everybody, according to their preference and means, which is a good thing.
 

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jeffc said:
...deleted stuff
Again lighter is better. ... deleted stuff
If any of you are interested in reading an SAE technical paper about the engine for the US bound Elise check out this pdf file link entitled:

"Development of the High-Speed 2ZZ-GE Engine" by four Toyota Motor Corp. engineers:

http://www.c7performance.com/data/2zz_ge_article.pdf

It has details, e.g. the dry weight of the engine is stated as
115kg which is about 253.5 lbs, and I'm sure Lotus will come in at less than 2000 lbs, 190bhp and a 0-60 time in the sub-5 second range, while the engine cuts out at the end of the red line range at 8400rpms.

Interestingly, they have a 2 data points about 400hp (1 less, 1 above)when they graph the mpg vs max hp in city vs highway driving (Fig 16).

Hopefully, Lotus will have tuned the torque curve to do something to smooth out the drop between 5000 and about 6400 rpm.

-- Tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
The data points you refer to are engines in the U.S. market, not the 2ZZ-GE. Probably a LT1 or the like.
 

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Eyelise said:
The data points you refer to are engines in the U.S. market, not the 2ZZ-GE. Probably a LT1 or the like.
Right you are Jeff. The nomenclature for the graph should have differentiated the 2ZZ-GE engine like the graph above in Fig 2 for Power to Weight and Power to Displacement comparisons (for the Japanese market).

The more important issue is the torque curve. I expect that the tuning Lotus is doing to the engine entails modifications to the ECU that smooth out the torque curve between 5000-6400 rpms.

-- Tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
The dip is a result of the variation in the valve lift kicking in. I'm not sure how much that can be modified thru tuning the ECU. If it can be modified Lotus might try to kick the valve lift in around 4K. The torque curve would look nice then. Toyota was shooting for gas efficiency and TLEV as well as power. Lotus does not have those constraints.

BTW, I noticed you are in Framingham, I'm in Westboro.
 

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mikester said:
Elise and Z06 ?

Apples and Elephants.

No Comparison.

Full Stop.

I'll agree with part one wholeheartedly. Part Two I disagree with wholeheartedly.

Part 1:
They are different beasts. So many factors account for who will win - the cars, weights, HP, torque, tires, track, track conditions, the weather, etc, etc... There isn't anyway to easily compare the two.

Part 2:
Secondly EVERY gearhead will have an opinion on the their comparison. If we didn't we'ld all have the same car. I used to love pure horsepower, now I'm ok with just a few horses as long as I can drive the hell out of it. The Elise won't be a great dragracer because you won't be able to max out a 1.8l engine the way you can a 5.7l one. Remember, there's no replacement for displacement. And the Z06 won't be as great a road track car as the Elise. But damn it man I'm going to compare my Elise to everything out there - Porsche's, BMW's, Viper's even frecking Minivans! :cool:

If I didn't car about comparing my car to the next one I'ld just get a car, nondesript, utilitarian, boring and plain. I love the Elise becuase it is so different, but not just because it's different.

So yes, I do agree with you. :)
But disagreeing is fun too.
 

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Well you're right of course about comparing unequal things, it's only natural - how many times have we all seen the car mags doing a "shootout" between the latest supercar and an F-18 ? So yeah, and I'll be doing it too !


But (flippant though my initial response was), all I was saying was that even though we all do this nutty comparison thing, an Elise and a 'vette are just so different that it strikes me as strange to even think about one "versus" the other as a purchasing choice. Where is Eyelise anyway, did he ever get his test-drive ??
 

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I agree, there aren't too many people that given a choice Elise or Vette would really have to debate long. They are both great cars in their own field but the one that you would choose is based more on your personality & driving style than anything else.

I love old vettes from the beginning up to the 70's or so. They have great style. But my driving style dictates that I would be happier in a modern car that handles extremely well versus an older vette. The new Vette's are getting better but they still just don't do it enough for me. And Vettes from the late 70's through the late 90's aren't anything I would *ever* want to have.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
I'm here, and I did get my test drive. I posted a summary if you are interested. I liked the Elise enough to put a deposit down. Obviously I didn't take it to the track where it would shine but I got a feel for the handling. The Rover drivetrain was fair IMHO but I'm hoping for more from Toyota. I spent Sunday doing autocross. We set up a 1.5 mile course with over 40 gates. I couldn't help thinking how well the Elise would do.
 

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Having the Beams 3sge would be very nice.

But having the 3sgte installed would be even cooler.
Having driven (and currently building a 3SGTE powered 1985 MR2) a 3sgte powered 1988 MR2 I can say that the car is extremely awesome to drive. or is it hang on too? well you get the point.

I can't wait to get a look and a drive from this car... now I have to look for a dealer in the Washington DC area. I live in an area not much different than the area this car was built (except for the added fun of hills and mountains) . This car belongs in my driveway...
 

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Hey Bill, Welcome to the lighter side. :p (Being a current owner of a 91T, I can finally say that). The 3SGTE with the iron block is a really heavy weight. Have you seen the Elise engine bay with the 1.8liter Toyota. Fitting a 2liter turbo, you'll need a prettty big shoehorn, but wouldn't put it pass you. ;)

BTW, I'm turbo2 on that other board.
 

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Ya, I tore into the 3sgte yesterday. Quite a heavy engine... the block is not much heavier than the 4AGE... it is all the other stuff that adds the weight. Isn't the Beams all aluminum? Yes, I do believe in lighter is better... hence my 200hp sub 2000 pound 1986 MR2 N/A. I know how fast that car can be, that is why I am all excited about this new Lotus with Toy power!

Just gotta see what it will look like with 20" chromies :)



Just kidding
 

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LOL, yeah and 500 lbs worth of subwoofer and amplifier will bring Elise back up to Celica weight.

FWIW my current daily driver is a slightly modified 1989 Mk I MR2, normally aspirated.
 

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So I am completely on board with the light weight thing and how good the Elise is on the twisties, but on the other hand there are plenty of racing cars with a lot more power than anything under discussion here and in some cases even less total weight.

For example, you could argue that the MG EX257 car is similar to the Elise in concept: It's got a 2 liter 4 cylinder engine with a big turbo that makes about 450 horsepower and weighs about 675 kilos or 1500 pounds.

http://www.tridentgarages.co.uk/mgx_lemans.htm
 

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Sure, and Formula 1 cars weigh about 1300 lbs with 900 V-10 horsepower.

The MG EX257 is a great sports car. The racing budgets for LMP675 are about $400,000 for Le Mans and far more than $1 million a year to run the American Le Mans Series (ALMS). A major portion of that is the cost of the car itself.

You can't drive either on the street.
 

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Waking the dead!

OK, so I'm new round here, and came to this converstation late, but as a track day junkie the part about the Z06 caught my eye.

I currently drive a heavily suspension modified, but otherwise stock, M3smg at the track, and one of my regular running partners is in a Z06. We are almost dead equal at the tracks (Willow, Laguna, Button Willow etc). He pulls out from me on the straights, I catch him on the twisties.

I am really hoping the Elise will allow me to 'nip' away from him, as it should have a much higher mid corner speed, and thus exit speed, making the need for big power less.

That said, what can we get this motor up to?

400hp would be just fine by me, that would make it about comparable to a '60s Le Mans car. Very doable for track days, and a blast on the road, but I guess a real optimum for the unit is around 280-300hp normally aspirated. Any thoughts anyone?
 

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The recent Autoweek article cited 300 hp in full race tune for this engine from Lotus engineers. Given that it was in Autoweek who knows if it's correct. :rolleyes:
 

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Re: Waking the dead!

macfly said:
OK, so I'm new round here, and came to this converstation late, but as a track day junkie the part about the Z06 caught my eye.

I currently drive a heavily suspension modified, but otherwise stock, M3smg at the track, and one of my regular running partners is in a Z06. We are almost dead equal at the tracks (Willow, Laguna, Button Willow etc). He pulls out from me on the straights, I catch him on the twisties.

I am really hoping the Elise will allow me to 'nip' away from him, as it should have a much higher mid corner speed, and thus exit speed, making the need for big power less.

That said, what can we get this motor up to?

400hp would be just fine by me, that would make it about comparable to a '60s Le Mans car. Very doable for track days, and a blast on the road, but I guess a real optimum for the unit is around 280-300hp normally aspirated. Any thoughts anyone?
What suspension mods put you even with a z06?
 
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