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302 Posts
I agree. It's like selling someone an airplane and telling them they can't really fly it.
Jeff
Jeff
Track use may void warranty!
So, I had an interesting discussion about track use and warranty claims. Seems that Lotus may void your warranty if you bring the car on a track. However, I think this is ridiculous if the car is not being used in competition, rather for "driving school."
As most people who buy this car will probably see a track or two, this would be a huge issue to them. What if you blow the tranny, and lotus says, "no, we wont replace it because you've taken it on a track." My opinion is, dont sell my a race car if you dont intend on me having fun with it. However, if you will be in full race competition with the car, that alone should void any warranty, as that does cause excess stress on the vehicle that you would not see on a car that was put on the track only occasionally.
It's like Lotus adding a clause that people who commute on mountain roads will not be able to make warranty claims. What about people who autoX?
I do not know for sure if this warranty clause exists, but if lotus is indeed considering it, we all need to make it known that this is unacceptible and we need to tell Lotus now.
As most people who buy this car will probably see a track or two, this would be a huge issue to them. What if you blow the tranny, and lotus says, "no, we wont replace it because you've taken it on a track." My opinion is, dont sell my a race car if you dont intend on me having fun with it. However, if you will be in full race competition with the car, that alone should void any warranty, as that does cause excess stress on the vehicle that you would not see on a car that was put on the track only occasionally.
It's like Lotus adding a clause that people who commute on mountain roads will not be able to make warranty claims. What about people who autoX?
I do not know for sure if this warranty clause exists, but if lotus is indeed considering it, we all need to make it known that this is unacceptible and we need to tell Lotus now.
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857 Posts
You are not buying a "race car" you are buying a street car. If you do buy a "race car" from Lotus it comes with no warranty, I know, I've bought two.
Roy
ps. Porsche and Ferrari have a simular clause in their warranty policy so why would you be surprised to see one for Lotus?
Roy
ps. Porsche and Ferrari have a simular clause in their warranty policy so why would you be surprised to see one for Lotus?
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2,662 Posts
tpup-
There is a big difference between track use and competition use. I was empasizing the purpose of the elise, I wasnt trying to miss-state it as being a true "race car." I am aware that the lotus "race cars" have no warranty. But they are also used solely for "competition." They are not street cars. And just as you cant take a race car on the street, I cant take my street car to a race.
I'm just hoping to make the distinction between competition and non-competition use in the warranty. I think that is fair!
There is a big difference between track use and competition use. I was empasizing the purpose of the elise, I wasnt trying to miss-state it as being a true "race car." I am aware that the lotus "race cars" have no warranty. But they are also used solely for "competition." They are not street cars. And just as you cant take a race car on the street, I cant take my street car to a race.
I'm just hoping to make the distinction between competition and non-competition use in the warranty. I think that is fair!
I can understand why Lotus would have such a clause, however it is in most people’s best interest to learn the handling characteristics of this mid-engine car. The only place suitable for this kind of education is somewhere other than the street. I intend on taking my car to the track, as that is where the driving school is. I would hope that this kind of education is not reason enough to void my warranty. Beware Lotus, if you sell people a car and deny them the opportunity to learn how to drive it effectively you may leave yourself liable.
I do not intend to race my car, but if I did, I would imagine it would and should void my warranty.
I do not intend to race my car, but if I did, I would imagine it would and should void my warranty.
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612 Posts
if you're going to track the car, might i HIGHLY suggest installing an Accusump on it. Being a previous 2zz owner, i can nearly guarantee you that it doesn't much like high-G turns.
Loss of oil pressure when rapping out 8000rpms usually isn't a welcome thing.
Plus, you get the added advantage of pre-oiling before you even start the engine. Cant' beat that!
Loss of oil pressure when rapping out 8000rpms usually isn't a welcome thing.
Plus, you get the added advantage of pre-oiling before you even start the engine. Cant' beat that!
Hi guys
I suspect this clause isn't primarily from Lotus but something their insurance underwriters are insisting on.
Have you checked how long your warrantys will be for ?
We only got 12 months over here.
So once the 12th month had passed lot's of aftermarket changes were made
e.g. Cat off
new Exhaust
Hope Toyota have sorted their enige out for you..
I suspect this clause isn't primarily from Lotus but something their insurance underwriters are insisting on.
Have you checked how long your warrantys will be for ?
We only got 12 months over here.
So once the 12th month had passed lot's of aftermarket changes were made
e.g. Cat off
new Exhaust
Hope Toyota have sorted their enige out for you..
Frankly - the car isn't going to be built to track spec so why should they warranty it for such use?
Even my Exige which was sold as a track-only vehicle needs many "upgrades" to be a serious track car.
Honda has a similar warranty issue with the S2000.
If you abuse your car it isn't Lotus' fault something breaks (track use is abuse to a street car).
Get ready for insurance fight if you ball up the car on the track as well.
Even my Exige which was sold as a track-only vehicle needs many "upgrades" to be a serious track car.
Honda has a similar warranty issue with the S2000.
If you abuse your car it isn't Lotus' fault something breaks (track use is abuse to a street car).
Get ready for insurance fight if you ball up the car on the track as well.
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495 Posts
This issue seems to come up frequently on automotive boards, as does the similar question, 'will my insurance cover track events?' Maybe, maybe not. RE insurance, driver may have to litigate to get a track disaster covered.
I think it's reasonable for Lotus to put the warranty clause in, but would suspect that most dealers will give the consumer some slack on this.
Also, unless you volunteer the information, the manufacturer may not know whether the car is tracked or not (I suppose an installed a race seat and harnesses might be suggestive).
Interesting read in 'Excellence' this month (Porsche mag) about the factory using the car's 'black box' stored info to void claims on their cup racing cars. Porsche now has a duplicated computer storage system on the cars, to prevent consumer fraud (racers were erasing the recorded over-revs on the car's computer, but now there's a second system that can't be accessed)
I think we'll be seeing more of this in the future
I think it's reasonable for Lotus to put the warranty clause in, but would suspect that most dealers will give the consumer some slack on this.
Also, unless you volunteer the information, the manufacturer may not know whether the car is tracked or not (I suppose an installed a race seat and harnesses might be suggestive).
Interesting read in 'Excellence' this month (Porsche mag) about the factory using the car's 'black box' stored info to void claims on their cup racing cars. Porsche now has a duplicated computer storage system on the cars, to prevent consumer fraud (racers were erasing the recorded over-revs on the car's computer, but now there's a second system that can't be accessed)
I think we'll be seeing more of this in the future
Do Lotus offer race harnesses as an option in the USA ?
Some countries need inertia reel seat belts to make them street legal. So in those countries some cars have race harnesses and inertia reel seat belts. In the UK race harnesses are ok without needing inertia reel seat belts.
If you're pushing a car hard on a track a race harnesses is SO much better.
As for track use being abuse for street cars.
That's a little too general.
In most cases it's true but not all.
Some countries need inertia reel seat belts to make them street legal. So in those countries some cars have race harnesses and inertia reel seat belts. In the UK race harnesses are ok without needing inertia reel seat belts.
If you're pushing a car hard on a track a race harnesses is SO much better.
As for track use being abuse for street cars.
That's a little too general.
In most cases it's true but not all.
If "you" blow the tranny at the track I would hope that Lotus wouldn't cover the repairs, but if the failure was attributed to a mechanical defect that would've happened no matter where you drive than it should definitely be under warranty. I feel companies are being taken far too many times on their warranty claims that were a result of user error. Which in the long run raises our prices and decreases the probability of having a issue taken care of when something actually breaks.Modern Wedgie said:
MW, this is not directed toward you I just wanted to share my opinion and hopefully clarify what you were inferring.
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L8brakr-
No offense taken. I'm concerned that if something mechanically goes wrong as a result of a manufacturer defect, and Lotus tries to make the argument that they will not replace it because the car was taken on a track.
No offense taken. I'm concerned that if something mechanically goes wrong as a result of a manufacturer defect, and Lotus tries to make the argument that they will not replace it because the car was taken on a track.
Over here dealers try as hard as they can to avoid paying out.
They don't tend to take an objective view on things, but your consumer protection law is different over there so you might have better results.
My point being that it's offen difficult to prove manufacturing defects on a pile of broken bits and the manufacturer will assume there was no defect unless you can prove there was.
They don't tend to take an objective view on things, but your consumer protection law is different over there so you might have better results.
My point being that it's offen difficult to prove manufacturing defects on a pile of broken bits and the manufacturer will assume there was no defect unless you can prove there was.
Oh, if the problem doesn't happen on the track than I would hope they don't give any objections it would be pretty hard to prove that it is a direct result of track use and luckily for us it goes the other way than what Mark has expressed. "If you can't prove that it's my fault than you're responsible".Modern Wedgie said:
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6,354 Posts
Guys, This IS NOT A RACE CAR!
Can you tell me that BMW or any other manufacturer would warrant a car that gets track use? I don't see it. Putting on a track whether it be track day or competition would put the car at increased risk of failures of components not to mention potential hamfisted driving from newbies.
Expecting warranty coverage for a track car would be like asking your regular insurance to pay for damage from a wreck during a track day.
If your willing to put your car on the track you need to be willing to deal with the consequences.
Chris
Can you tell me that BMW or any other manufacturer would warrant a car that gets track use? I don't see it. Putting on a track whether it be track day or competition would put the car at increased risk of failures of components not to mention potential hamfisted driving from newbies.
Expecting warranty coverage for a track car would be like asking your regular insurance to pay for damage from a wreck during a track day.
If your willing to put your car on the track you need to be willing to deal with the consequences.
Chris
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495 Posts
True, but there is a 'gray area,' in that driver education events (which is what many track events are called), are not considered 'racing' by the organizers, nor should they be.
There are plenty of people who take their cars to these events to have a fun and SAFE time exploring what their car can do. It's certainly safer than 'racing' on public streets, which is all too popular in these 'fast and furious' days
As track events are becoming much more popular here in the US, I suspect that the 'gray' area will become more clearly defined in the years to come
More competitive events should be rightfully excluded from warranty/insurance, while entry level 'educational' events should be covered
There are plenty of people who take their cars to these events to have a fun and SAFE time exploring what their car can do. It's certainly safer than 'racing' on public streets, which is all too popular in these 'fast and furious' days
As track events are becoming much more popular here in the US, I suspect that the 'gray' area will become more clearly defined in the years to come
More competitive events should be rightfully excluded from warranty/insurance, while entry level 'educational' events should be covered
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27,787 Posts
Really no different than any other manufacturer. They make performance cars, but you better not race it.
Subura WRXs even come with an SCCA membership for a year and they sponsor the cars.
The reality is that a good car company will cover things that make sense to cover. A bad company will find out you entered it in some sort of competition and void any part of your warrantee.
Toyota is a company that has shown it will do this. When you take your Toyota in for service, many people take off racing mods, some even remove the aftermarket struts when they take a car in for engine work. At least one Toyota dealer googled the owner's name and found him in some autocrossing results and voided all the warantee work. Lame.
In my discussion with a Lotus rep, I was open with admitting this car will be competed with. The answer was that if I did something on the track that contributed to a failure, it was my fault and would not be covered. Otherwise I should be okay. I have no problem with that.
Subura WRXs even come with an SCCA membership for a year and they sponsor the cars.
The reality is that a good car company will cover things that make sense to cover. A bad company will find out you entered it in some sort of competition and void any part of your warrantee.
Toyota is a company that has shown it will do this. When you take your Toyota in for service, many people take off racing mods, some even remove the aftermarket struts when they take a car in for engine work. At least one Toyota dealer googled the owner's name and found him in some autocrossing results and voided all the warantee work. Lame.
In my discussion with a Lotus rep, I was open with admitting this car will be competed with. The answer was that if I did something on the track that contributed to a failure, it was my fault and would not be covered. Otherwise I should be okay. I have no problem with that.
Agreed.
However just to make people a little more confident
I know lot's of people here who track there cars and these cars have fewer problems than race cars on the track !
This might be hard to figure but can be understood when considering that race cars have much finer tollerences.
Mind you I can't comment on Toyota engine related problems....
....bang... who said that
The Rover lump has a known higher head gasket risk around 20,000 miles. So mine's living on borrowed time
However just to make people a little more confident
I know lot's of people here who track there cars and these cars have fewer problems than race cars on the track !
This might be hard to figure but can be understood when considering that race cars have much finer tollerences.
Mind you I can't comment on Toyota engine related problems....
....bang... who said that
The Rover lump has a known higher head gasket risk around 20,000 miles. So mine's living on borrowed time
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