The Lotus Cars Community banner

1 - 20 of 34 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
352 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
hey, i have an exige s with lotus stage II exhaust, no cat, intake, forcedfed power package. its making some good power now, but i want a little more. i have a ppe header coming soon and want to purchase a water/methanol kit. if i buy one, it will be the RLS kit because i see that they have a really nice kit now that seems pretty safe and works well to help the heat soak issue. but i dont want to just help that issue, i would like to go get a tune (since i have the EFI standalone) and tune for more timing, ect. for more power. do most people think this is a good safe idea or should the water/methanol be only used against heat soak on our cars?

i have read a lot about water/methanol on here, but only found people using it for heat soak, but i think its because most are lacking the standalone ecu. im jealous of all my car buds with methanol on their sti's and such getting like 60-80whp from tuning for it. i obviously dont expect that much, but if i got 30-40whp, id be more than happy. i appreciate any logical opinions. thanks.
 

·
00 MRS - 2ZZ NA
Joined
·
1,228 Posts
Jlitman is running 14.7 psi on his built block on his automatic greddy supercharged GTS, and he's only using water injection to supress detonation:

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=229926

Read his thread, and see his power increases from just tuning with water injection alone. Here's the single post link to his WI gains:

NewCelica.org Forum - View Single Post - Quick update on jlitman's Soon to be Water/Alcohol Injected S/C AT GT-S

Soon, he'll be running ronin's old A2W cooler that he had on his old supercharger setup.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
hey, i have an exige s with lotus stage II exhaust, no cat, intake, forcedfed power package. its making some good power now, but i want a little more. i have a ppe header coming soon and want to purchase a water/methanol kit. if i buy one, it will be the RLS kit because i see that they have a really nice kit now that seems pretty safe and works well to help the heat soak issue. but i dont want to just help that issue, i would like to go get a tune (since i have the EFI standalone) and tune for more timing, ect. for more power. do most people think this is a good safe idea or should the water/methanol be only used against heat soak on our cars?

i have read a lot about water/methanol on here, but only found people using it for heat soak, but i think its because most are lacking the standalone ecu. im jealous of all my car buds with methanol on their sti's and such getting like 60-80whp from tuning for it. i obviously dont expect that much, but if i got 30-40whp, id be more than happy. i appreciate any logical opinions. thanks.
Great idea, I'm very close behind as I am putting together my plan for my Elise, and good for you!!! Having the EFI and being able to tune for the W/I should give great results, but unless you go with a smaller pulley and increase boost then you won't get "STI-like" results...even still, you're probably looking at a good 10-15rwhp with timing and cooler intake temps. The best benefit will be a loss of heatsoak, as heat can really dampen the power with timing retard.

There is no real difference between tuning for "power" or "heatsoak" when you have a tunable solution...such as EFI or custom flashing ability, so don't get hung up on it. The reason why most on this forum don't sing the praises of W/I is that there isn't a great deal of experience with the popular tuners...a very different situation than the STI/Evo/Vette world, but don't despair.

My recomendations:
- run a 50%water/50%methanol (as it's not flamable in a crash, doesn't evaporate as fast as pure methanol, not as corrosive as pure meth and is easy to mix. I ran 100% meth in my Z06 with great results and currently run 70% meth in my STI...with phenomenal results!!!!
-have the spray come on at a low boost, 3-4psi. Since the spray will come on early, it will be easier to tune the transition.
-Mount the nozzle immediately after the intercooler - this will give the mixture ample time to mix well with the intake charge before entering the intake manifold.
-Have your tuner target mid to high 11's AFRs, not the very lean AFRs we see on the flashes...you'll not get a great deal of power by going very lean and if the pump or nozzle doesn't flow the juice in the future, you'll still keep the motor alive. Also, the higher amount of methanol you mix, the lower the stoich....so a 100% methanol spray engine running 20% fueling will usually do best around 11:1. If you use a reasonable nozzle (10-15% fueling) and mix 50/50 or 70/30, then 11.5-11.9 should be a great compromise between power and safety.
-For roadcourse duty, you'll need more than a 1gallon tank for a 20min session, but YMMV.
-If you're going to run more than 50/50 mix of methanol, make sure the kit's pump can handle it...THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT.

Good luck and try to find a tuner who has experience with water-injection. Call the various W/I companies (Coolingmist/Snow/Perrin/ect.) and ask them for advice on nozzle size and amount to spray.

Be good,
TomK
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
352 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
thanks for all your input, couple of things i was reading in that link you posted above that kind of made me think was that they are talking about running a direct port injection and have 4 sepeate injectors in each runner so that each has an equal amount of spray, idk if this is really necessary or if just one located right after the intercooler is sufficient. right now i have the custom intercooler piping made by RLS in my room which has the nozzle already beautifully fit into the pipe right after the intercooler so im set on that.

also, one other thing was the longer term possible deterioration of some of the parts that the water comes across. that kind of scared me. then again, the reports of the problem was on a v6 car m90 1st gen supercharger on it with just 100% water injection. so i guess the subject matter is a little different, but it still made me think about it.

i will most likely run the 50/50 (water/heet). i have talked to my tuner already about it and he has done lots of turbo cars with methanol and also tuned my car the first time around with the forcedfed power package, so hopefully he will do it right again. let me know how you (or anyone else) feels about the above.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
my comments in red below...
they are talking about running a direct port injection and have 4 sepeate injectors in each runner so that each has an equal amount of spray, idk if this is really necessary or if just one located right after the intercooler is sufficient. right now i have the custom intercooler piping made by RLS in my room which has the nozzle already beautifully fit into the pipe right after the intercooler so im set on that.
-Just use the one in the RLS pipe

also, one other thing was the longer term possible deterioration of some of the parts that the water comes across. that kind of scared me. then again, the reports of the problem was on a v6 car m90 1st gen supercharger on it with just 100% water injection. so i guess the subject matter is a little different, but it still made me think about it.there has been no "long-term" deterioration issues with meth/water injection that I know of...as the vapor doesn't "sit" around and corrode parts. The air in the intake tract is moving at well over 100mph when it is spraying and the fluid is ingested. Sure, put a bolt in a cup of meth/water and over time it will corrode like the Titanic, but that's not the case in an engine.

i will most likely run the 50/50 (water/heet). i have talked to my tuner already about it and he has done lots of turbo cars with methanol and also tuned my car the first time around with the forcedfed power package, so hopefully he will do it right again. let me know how you (or anyone else) feels about the above.

-sounds like you're set with the plan!!! If you could, post up the before/after dyno as there are still those that believe that the world is still flat and that one needs to bolt on a jaccuzzi to cool their intake temps.
Be good,
TomK
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
882 Posts
I will have few clear answer next week, the car will be on Dyno, and we will try few adjustments for the water injection (cooling mist). The car have a katana kit, and only thing to adjust will be the water injection.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
352 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
ok well i guess thats a good start to finding out how much power can be extracted, def let me/us know when the dyno's done. i am hoping to order the water/meth kit as soon as my header gets shipped out so they will arrive at the same time, which from what i was told is the end of this week so ill prob order sometime next week. cant wait to see your results.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
882 Posts
I did some try on the dyno.

First: It is the second I am going with my Elise on the Dyno, and I don't know if I am the only one, but it sound that the car needs few runs to obtain the maximum power. The first time the car was stock, and the second time, with the katana, std pulley.

Second: The power band was not as expected, and I was on the dyno to try to understand the feeling I had. The cause is probably my exhaust tube, the original one with the catalyser stuff removed inside. The pumping effect of the tube is not not optimal, and I remaimber that the car was better with a de-cat pipe like Larini, but I removed it because it broke quickly in 2 pieces on the track.

Result of the water injection: I tried with an engagement point at 3 psi, and full flow at 8 psi (my gage is showing 9 psi, caused by probably a bad gas evacuation on the exhaust). I have a coolingmist, and I did not find any major result with it. With the flow setting bellow 3, the result was close the same, and the best run was with water injection off, the last session. With the water flow at 5, it was too much, and the power started to go down. The water jet is installed between the throttle body and the compressor.

But over that, I never experimented power changes during track session with the flow at 3, constant power. Without the water injection, I don't know, I never tracked without.

Probably with higher boost, the gain will be evident, but the std katana boost setting, I did not see advantage.
 

·
00 MRS - 2ZZ NA
Joined
·
1,228 Posts
You're not on a custom tune? Bummer. I assumed you were. Doing this is like adding cams and not doing any VVT-i tuning. This is what jlitman gained by going pre to post water injection on his automatic greddy supercharge GTS, before moving onto a built block and making more power:



The power is there to be gained, but it has to be done with a custom tune.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,734 Posts
I ran my stock katana on the track twice. On hot days. Even on 30+min sessions I never experienced power loss. If I did, I never felt it. Shifting point stayed the same, speed at the end of straight remained the same throughout the day(s).

If there is any gain to be had with WI it will be on a custom tune. The stock Katana works flawlessly on the track. Even on warm days, during long sessions.

If you could tune for WI, maybe you can advance timing a bit, run a bit leaner, stuff like that. Not sure how much power could be gain. It seems nobody did it on an Elise yet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,734 Posts
Result of the water injection: I tried with an engagement point at 3 psi, and full flow at 8 psi (my gage is showing 9 psi, caused by probably a bad gas evacuation on the exhaust).
Wow! Is that on the 3.4" pulley? I think the stock Katana supposed to be around 5psi max. What's the story? How much power did you make on the dyno?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
882 Posts
Darth,

Like I said on my message, it is probably something wrong to have this boost. The car was more powerful when it was with a Borla exhaust and the Larini de-cat pipe, but the pipe broke, and the muffler is too noisy for Mont-Tremblant and Calabogi race track. The torque was great. I put back the stock pipe and muffler, but since my catalyser was defect, it was required to removed the interior. And the torque curve is not good with this set-up, and the car feel like less powerfull. The power is only 206 hp, but the curve is so so, maybe two causes, cam timing, or exhaust, next week I will build a de-cat pipe, I will see. The air fuel ratio was constant and looking good. And maybe the boost is high because of the pipe. But it was expected that my boost should be a little higher that the usual value, I spended time to set all parts and the air box entry (with alrger curved tube). But I know that my engine in stock shape was less powerfull that other, was not a good engine. Sergialized car in stock form was better than mine when it was stock. Life is life, sometime good (my GSX 2005 was at 148 whp at wheel stock, my Europa with an Honda engine is at 192 whp), sometime bad (my Elise, my CBR-900R 1995).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,734 Posts
Regarding noise, I had some problem with 2bular 24X8" I did 92.1db the limit being 92. I retightened the exhaust clamp and put a stock air filter to my de-snorkled box (next time I will put the snorkle on for Tremblant) and didn't have a problem afterwards. I don't think you could get away without a cat at Tremblant...

For the power, I did 191rwhp on a Mustang dyno where a stock Elise did 140rwhp. So I'm 51rwhp over stock. Sounds good to me.

Maybe we should fly Charlie in Quebec and have him custom tune all our cars and share the bill. I'm curious to know if Charlie could gain power with WI.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
352 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
hey, sorry to hear about the upset in results with the water injection, but thats what i was talking about before about the tuning, i figured with no timing advance or higher boost, there is not much to be seen except maybe less heat soak. also, i will be going with the RLS kit which has the nozzle right after the intercooler (pipes already installed on my car and welds are perfect from RLS). i should be recieving my header at the end of next week and then ordering the kit and going for tuning, so itll be around a month from now till its done, but i will let you guys know when it is. right now im at 233whp on a mustang dyno, im hoping with the header and water/methanol ill be around 265-270 whp on the mustang dyno after tuning.
 

·
00 MRS - 2ZZ NA
Joined
·
1,228 Posts
Not sure how much power could be gain. It seems nobody did it on an Elise yet.
:wallbang:

It's not like jlitman's dyno I posted of his automatic transmission greddy supercharged GTS is tuned on the emanage ultimate piggyback ECU...the same ECU kverges here uses to tune his turbo'd Elise...:rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
Result of the water injection: I tried with an engagement point at 3 psi, and full flow at 8 psi (my gage is showing 9 psi, caused by probably a bad gas evacuation on the exhaust). I have a coolingmist, and I did not find any major result with it. With the flow setting bellow 3, the result was close the same, and the best run was with water injection off, the last session. With the water flow at 5, it was too much, and the power started to go down.
Without custom tuning, you'll not find any "power" on a dyno...unless you are going to compare a heatsoaked run to a heatsoaked with W/I run. Also, you must not spray too much without tuning or,as experienced, you'll lose power. The better way to adjust the amount of maximum spray is with the nozzle size, as using the pump-pressure to limit the max spray is not advised. I would suggest going to a smaller nozzle and use the controller on your current settings.

What mix are you using? 50/50 meth/water...100% water...100% meth??? You should be using at least a 50% methanol mixture, as 100% water is often too much for a "non-tuned" engine.

Shame Charlie hasn't done any work with W/I.

Be good,
TomK
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
186 Posts
I ran my stock katana on the track twice. On hot days. Even on 30+min sessions I never experienced power loss. If I did, I never felt it.
That is interesting...that must be bcause the tune is very conservative to start. On track, the blower is pumping out air well over 200degrees....Phil says 250, Don says 300...and most ECUs/tuners will pull timing as temps go over 150 (my magnacharged Z06 pulled timing over 140 with the Air/Water I/C...never pullled with the W/I). Perhaps the tune is baselined with high IATs and doesn't need to pull timing to avoid detonation, as it's never provoked....could that really be?
If that is the case, then a custom tuned Katana with W/I will make significant gains and have much more available on that 20min on the track than without.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,185 Posts
FYI, i went to a Mitsubishi meet at Mitsu Headquarters today and they had a dyno there. Some 3000GT VR4 with biggie twin turbos and meth injection went on the dyno. Near the end of his run, a meth hose blew off. Then engine went Kaboom before anyone realized a hose blew off.... So, lesson is have proper failsafes!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,273 Posts
FYI, i went to a Mitsubishi meet at Mitsu Headquarters today and they had a dyno there. Some 3000GT VR4 with biggie twin turbos and meth injection went on the dyno. Near the end of his run, a meth hose blew off. Then engine went Kaboom before anyone realized a hose blew off.... So, lesson is have proper failsafes!
-eek-
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,316 Posts
I have run H20 injection for 10 years on cars - it is a bit of a band-aid if you have no intercooler or the intercooler is inefficient, IMO. That said, packaging and other issues on street cars make it a very sound idea, especially when boosting a stock compression engine. Like I said, I have it on 3 different boosted cars and it has a real benefit,a s 2 of the cars leave no real room for an intercooler.

That said, it does absolutely nothing if you cannot tune the car. Typicaly, it allows you to run more spark advance than without it, and there is the power. Just bolting it on a car with no other changes will not increase power and might reduce it slightly. You might get a bit more detonation protection, but that is it.

FWIW it does seem to allow me to run near stock timing on a turbo Elise with 8psi boost and a modest intercooler, and I have not yet blown the car up after over 2 1/2 years and probably 12000 miles. Probably just jinxed myself.
 
1 - 20 of 34 Posts
Top